ICC Pugs and the ''loot after PP!!''

[Lawwl]

Keep behaving like little tards, going afk, faking dc, leaving after a loot, then don't get surprised if leader take precautions to avoid the destruction of his raid. Do you know how hard is to full a raid and pushing it as far as possible? Last time I did a ICC 10 the tank left immediately after Marrowgar was killed, and I tried to replace him, with no results. Who will lock himself with marrowgar already down? And most of all, a tank? Needless to say I had to announce RO, apologizing to the 8 other players, I feel really bad for them, who wasted the ID for 1 boss, I didn't even need anything from the run, I just wanted to see a decent pug run without stupid kids. But this will never stop.
Today I did icc 10 with one very good RL (who made several bane/lk 25/rs 25 kills) and after every boss there was someone leaving, whining, faking disconnect, and we replaced like 20 ppl until we made it to the last boss, BQL, where the shaman healer just trolled the whole raid that was getting huge aoe damage, by jumping around doing 0 heals, and we were lucky that the hpal managed to solo heal the fight, and it was hard af. Just a note: the shaman was a male draenei, a mark of ******ation 100%, I never saw a male draenei being useful or skilled in 10+ years of wow, they are the equivalent of the male blood elves in horde. So after BQL the shaman just left raid and RL announced RO.
You join a raid and you know you don't have time to stay until the end? then don't join. Same if you don't have patience and other things. You deserve to be kicked in the ***, and no items for you, u get locked and u go away with empty bags, next time maybe you will think twice before doing the scumbag in raid.

If you pretend to be a great leader to save the raid, at least be capable of handling the god damn loot. If you say you will give the loot later, then give the loot later, don't say this "oopsie daisy it expired. WHAT A COINCIDENCE, I need that specific item that just expired, very sorry guys!".

If u dont like, well i dont, most of them sometimes forget to say that they will roll the items in the ending, and they say it at the 2nd or 3rd boss. you can report them i think. you should check the ninja rules lol.

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=325598

- Changing looting rules during the raid, after it has started.

Is he technically changing anything though? Changing would be if he said at the start he will give items right after the kill, but after the kill he said "I changed my mind, will give in 2 hours". But he never said anything about the loot at all. Or is there an official standard for looting? :?

[angrylol]

Is he technically changing anything though? Changing would be if he said at the start he will give items right after the kill, but after the kill he said "I changed my mind, will give in 2 hours". But he never said anything about the loot at all. Or is there an official standard for looting? :?

I think its safe to assume that default is MS>OS right after boss, like it has been for decades by now.

And this "roll after pp" is ok, provided that it's CLEARLY stated before pull. but if I kill first boss with pug and now lead says rolls are going to be after 1.5hrs after the fact? Report that **** and it will stick. Fact is that items went to guy without rolling and it was not within rules or rules leader himself set. These "but rolls later, I'm not a ninja" or whatever, irrelevant details.

[Lawwl]

I think its safe to assume that default is MS>OS right after boss, like it has been for decades by now.

And this "roll after pp" is ok, provided that it's CLEARLY stated before pull. but if I kill first boss with pug and now lead says rolls are going to be after 1.5hrs after the fact? Report that **** and it will stick. Fact is that items went to guy without rolling and it was not within rules or rules leader himself set. These "but rolls later, I'm not a ninja" or whatever, irrelevant details.

Is it safe to assume though? Just because everyone has been doing it for decades, it does not mean it is OFFICIAL. Is there a WRITTEN rule that says "you have to distribute loot immediatly after the boss kill, unless you state otherwise beforehand"? If there isn't, I don't think it's official and people who still fairly distribute loot AFTER those 1 hour and 40 minutes without saying anything, are not technically ninjas and are not supposed to get banned.

HOWEVER, if the leader is stupid enough to keep an item for too long and apologizes to everyone by saying it was an accident and he did not notice, that's an entirely different story. Problem comes up when you have to show some proof of this type of ninja, as someone has already said. How do you even prove something like that without filming the entire raid?

[angrylol]

Is it safe to assume though? Just because everyone has been doing it for decades, it does not mean it is OFFICIAL. Is there a WRITTEN rule that says "you have to distribute loot immediatly after the boss kill, unless you state otherwise beforehand"? If there isn't, I don't think it's official and people who still fairly distribute loot AFTER those 1 hour and 40 minutes without saying anything, are not technically ninjas and are not supposed to get banned.

HOWEVER, if the leader is stupid enough to keep an item for too long and apologizes to everyone by saying it was an accident and he did not notice, that's an entirely different story. Problem comes up when you have to show some proof of this type of ninja, as someone has already said. How do you even prove something like that without filming the entire raid?

How that report would look:

1. screen of loot rules/recruitment message, example, "lfm icc10n!".
2. screen of raid overview tab.
3. screen of lead taking items without rolling.
4. Situation: Leader took all items after we killed boss, there was no mention of such thing at any time before we pulled.

Fact is that items went to bag without rolling. Solid and indisputable grounds. "Master Looter taking items that were not reserved or giving them to players that did not win,"

What happens later, apologies or rolling later only impact players themselves to make decision to report or come to consensus.

[brick12345]

Is it safe to assume though? Just because everyone has been doing it for decades, it does not mean it is OFFICIAL. Is there a WRITTEN rule that says "you have to distribute loot immediatly after the boss kill, unless you state otherwise beforehand"? If there isn't, I don't think it's official and people who still fairly distribute loot AFTER those 1 hour and 40 minutes without saying anything, are not technically ninjas and are not supposed to get banned

You don't understand that all of this drama is only a consequence of all those stupid kids that infect this game and don't want to grow up. In 10+ years of wow, I never saw a RL keeping the loot until the very end, so imagine what you (you intended as community) have done to us (raid leaders) on this server, at the point that we now must keep the items, hoping this will demotivate people to leave and destroy our raid. You literally made us going crazy, exasperated, depressed, it's easy to whisper "inv me" and link a stupid achievement, but try to do the RL, looking alone for the best raid composition possible, inspecting each member stats and achievements, spamming on channels the raid message, find tanks, healers, and then once formed the raid, coordinate everything and make sure everyone knows the tactic. And at the same time having to deal with constant lazyness (people afk/not releasing..) or people arguing for everything, people demotivated to do a 2nd try after a wipe (that happens even to top guilds so..) It's all because of you, the day you will start behaving like human beings instead of backstabbing us after all the work done, by leaving raids, faking dcs, and all this ****, maybe we will go back to normal loot rules. At the moment we don't trust you sorry.

[Lawwl]

You don't understand that all of this drama is only a consequence of all those stupid kids that infect this game and don't want to grow up. In 10+ years of wow, I never saw a RL keeping the loot until the very end, so imagine what you (you intended as community) have done to us (raid leaders) on this server, at the point that we now must keep the items, hoping this will demotivate people to leave and destroy our raid. You literally made us going crazy, exasperated, depressed, it's easy to whisper "inv me" and link a stupid achievement, but try to do the RL, looking alone for the best raid composition possible, inspecting each member stats and achievements, spamming on channels the raid message, find tanks, healers, and then once formed the raid, coordinate everything and make sure everyone knows the tactic. And at the same time having to deal with constant lazyness (people afk/not releasing..) or people arguing for everything, people demotivated to do a 2nd try after a wipe (that happens even to top guilds so..) It's all because of you, the day you will start behaving like human beings instead of backstabbing us after all the work done, by leaving raids, faking dcs, and all this ****, maybe we will go back to normal loot rules. At the moment we don't trust you sorry.

I don't really understand why you've quoted that part of my comment since I actually defended you there, saying you don't do anything officially illegal.

I understand frustration from your part, that's exactly why I would rather join a raid than host my own. However, you only listed the negatives of leading the raid. Yes, you have to deal with slackers and leavers and can't afk not only during the raid, but before the raid as well. But you also get all the BoEs with primos from bosses (if you are doing most bosses in normal difficulty, you can make a fortune from one raid. I'd say several hours of that frustration is definitely worth it). And don't forget the 100% guarantee nobody will ninja anything from you, doesn't matter by accident or not. Only you, the raid leader, get this guarantee, nobody else. This is a huge factor if you are looking for a very rare BiS item. So please, don't pretend to be the victim here. You have just as many advantages as we have, if not even more.

[brick12345]

I just quoted you because this whole thread shouldn't even exists, if people played with brain and fingers.
About the BoE and Primos, I'm not kidding you I don't reserve them when I do RL. I simply let people /roll. I don't care about making money, or getting the best loot, my aim is forming a good group and beat some challenges, be accomplished as a raid leader and as a player, and be proud of all my effort and time spent.
For sure there are some scumbags that ninja bis items, they deserve a ban, but if they ninja again, a perma ban should be placed imho. Sadly they get banned for 60 days and then they are free again, and for some people a bunch of pixels worth 2 months of ban. And they probably do this more than one time, I never saw someone permabanned for ninja looting, but this is another story.
Fact is I don't have any advantages, a raid leader can group the best experience and equipped player on the server, and still never know if he is gonna ragequit after 3 bosses or if he will stay until the end. On the other and, you as raid player, can check the raid leader, how he creates an efficient group, how is his knowledge, his coordination, his behaviour, maybe he is in a famous guild, maybe he runs pugs every single week, so you can almost trusts this kind of player and you don't have to worry about getting ninjaed and you know he is doing his best for the raid.
Obviously if your RL is a dk with 4k5 gs with wrong gems, without guild, that groups 3 warriors and 4 dk on a 10 run, and dodge the loot rules question, it's pretty easy to understand that you can't trust this kind of player.
This is the problem. That you are able to trust/untrust us (raid leaders), but we must basically roll the dice and hope the player grouped is not a douche. No matter his achievements or gear.

[Lawwl]

About the BoE and Primos, I'm not kidding you I don't reserve them when I do RL. I simply let people /roll. I don't care about making money, or getting the best loot, my aim is forming a good group and beat some challenges, be accomplished as a raid leader and as a player, and be proud of all my effort and time spent.

First of all, you willingly give up your own advantage and reward for the raid leading frustration. That's very nice from a member's perspective but if you actually willingly do this, don't complain that your cons outweigh the pros. You have thrown one of your pros into the trash.

Secondly, it is VERY stupid (IMO) to host a PuG if your only reason is to be proud of creating a "good" group that beats challenges. You create a guild for that. Guild members will not rage quit. Guild members will not slack (well, not nearly as much as random pugs). Guild members will not leave if the item they were looking for did not drop. You get officer's help in guild runs and you don't have to check everyone's gear individually before every raid. If everything you just mentioned is truly your ONLY reason to be a raid leader, well it is really dumb to sacrifice a guild for a PuG. You are just putting nails in your own coffin, ofcourse the result of this is you getting frustrated AF.

And you can't always tell if the person who's hosting a PuG is a ninja or not. It's not as easy as you are trying to put it. Doesn't matter how knowledgeable and matured a leader seems and if he is in a prestigious guild. In fact, this kind of people are usually (not always, usually) more cocky and arrogant than medium-geared person in an average guild. If they need only one BiS item from a raid to being a full BiS character, it's even more tempting to ninja that item. All we can get is a high probability which will never be 100% like yours.

[brick12345]

When I was in retail WOTLK I was in a semi-hardcore guild, and we managed to clear almost all content, so I know the differences between a guild and pug, also here on Icecrown I was again in a guild, progress was 11/12 25hc but then the guild failed because everyone stop trying and it became a "boost your alt" guild. Everyone left it, and to be honest I realized (when I left too) that when I was in the guild I was really stressed to do the same things over and over again, no matter if win or loose. So now I feel way better and free, I can do whatever I want when I log in game, PvP, PvE, chatting, and so on. At this point of my life I feel this is the right approach to the game, I don't have time and the right mindset to be in a hardcore guild, but still sometimes I would like to do PvE, and my only choice is PUG.
It's not stupid as you think, creating a PUG and try to beat challenges is maybe even more satisfying than doing it on a guild. Because there is no communication, you don't know the players and so on..Obviously you can't aim for LK25HC, I never tried and I know it will be a failure 100%, top guilds struggle too on that fight, so since now I'm more a casual player, for me it's enough a 10/25man normal, and I believe it can be done, if people stopped with child behaviours.
For example, I just did a RS25 normal with my alt, we wiped 2-3 times but at the end we did it, because almost no one left the group and everyone was focusing on the challenge and ready to try again and learn from mistakes.
ICC 25 is nothing hard, sindra can be tricky, but all the bosses including the LK are puggable with no problem, and that's kinda what I want to do, being free from guild daily raids, but also be able to do decent pugs run and demostrate IT CAN BE DONE. I'm tired of seeing all these "6/12 run" or even worse. I got the KS title in 25mode on different chars, and they were all pug runs.
About the raid leader ninja, I told you my personal opinion, luckily I never experienced a good player breaking rules, they might be cocky indeed, but usually they don't want to put their guild in the hall of shame. I mean they can literally have whatever they want, if they host raid outside the guild is because they just want to play/do some challenges for fun. In fact the guy who hosted the RS25, had already LOD and RS25HC, and bis char so he had NOTHING to gain from the run, but still he did it, and it succeeded. I don't see this something stupid.
Obviously having every pug run ending 12/12 or 4/4 or whatever, everytime is impossible, but I wish to see a better situation of the pugs raids right now, because at the moment most of them are pure cancer...

[brick12345]

I just remembered, the run I did this morning on icc10 that ended at BQL after tons of replacements, was hosted by the same guy who hosted RS25. And we went HC first two quarters (lady included) and group loot all the time, nothing reserved. Clear example of someone that does it for the challenge/fun and doesn't care about loots or money. Not stupid imho.

[OhieMitzen]

I just remembered, the run I did this morning on icc10 that ended at BQL after tons of replacements, was hosted by the same guy who hosted RS25. And we went HC first two quarters (lady included) and group loot all the time, nothing reserved. Clear example of someone that does it for the challenge/fun and doesn't care about loots or money. Not stupid imho.

I just remembered, the run I did two days ago ICC25HC pug run that ended after VDW after few replacements, was hosted by somebody who hosted another icc. And we went HC all bosses (lady,PP not included), leader looted all the items after each kill*, BoE/Primo/Shards reserved. Clear example of someone that does it for the challenge/fun and doesn't care about loots or money. Not stupid imho.

*which were held for a while before rolling at appropriate time. LDW items were rolled right away, LM+GS after Plague, DBS+ Plague loots after BQL, CH+VDW after VDW.

[MaXiMuS54]

Its because people leave after DBS because several people are there only for the Marks and DBW. Just by looking at the group its pretty easy to tell your odds of killing another boss with marks.

[Deathmastered]

You may have a valid reason possibly, but how will you prove that to your raid leader right there and then?

"But why would I have to prove anything, especially right there and then?"

-How could the leader know that you ACTUALLY have a valid reason to leave there and then? Later the item may get binded to you, so you "sadly" won't be able to return it to him, if you didn't have one.

Also, if done so, so many people would abuse this by faking accidents.


To sum this (and what many others have said):
a) Have time = have a shot at getting loot;
b) May have time for the raid = be ready not to get the loot if you leave mid-raid
c) Don't think have time for the whole raid = don't join. Or you don't deserve the loot as you mess up things for the raid leader.
d) I actually came just for one item = again, you don't deserve to receive the loot right there and then.

[brick12345]

To sum this (and what many others have said):
a) Have time = have a shot at getting loot;
b) May have time for the raid = be ready not to get the loot if you leave mid-raid
c) Don't think have time for the whole raid = don't join. Or you don't deserve the loot as you mess up things for the raid leader.
d) I actually came just for one item = again, you don't deserve to receive the loot right there and then.

Correct.
One time there was a rogue that, what a coincidence, when the item he needed dropped, started to cry because he couldn't roll it in that moment, and he had to go to work very soon. We were there since few hours and he didnt say a word about this. So he already knew he should have go to work that day at that hour, and still he joined the raid. I'm glad he got saved for nothing.

[hellforge]

join a goddamn guild

You pretty much said it yourself.