Is Affliction playble in PvE? TBC

[Shirakus]

ps, screenshot not from outland realm.

[poephoofd]

Also youre some weird demo spec here which gives you a lot of sp as well...

That's because Demo is the best DPS until high T5. Subtract around 170 SD from what I have, add 42 from the Sup Wizard Oil I should've had active but didn't and then add 120 SD from the Destruction Potion I could've popped but also didn't. Then add the SD I would get if I were wearing Sunwell gear. That puts you above 2k for sure.

ps, screenshot not from outland realm.

I'm just going to ignore you because you're clearly trolling or stupid.

Are you able to back this up with solid data? So far you've stated it as true and linked a talent spec as a prerequisite. Most players would suggest SB ends up being better. You have the burden of proof to change everyones mind, but you've actually given no supporting facts. Do you have logs supporting that immolate does more average damage per cast than SB does over the course of a fight?

It's simple maths.

Assuming the spec I posted, no spell resist (because that'll just cut damage by the same for both specs) and Succubus sacrificed for 15% more Shadow Damage.

Immolate damage:
Initial damage + DoT damage
Initial damage: ((327+0.198*Fire_Damage)*(1+Imp_Immolate_Level*0.0 5)*(1+Crit/100*(0.5+Ruin*0.5)*Meta_Crit_Gem_Bonus)
DoT damage: (615+0.653*Fire_Damage)*Scorch_Multiplier*Misery_M ultiplier*(1+Emberstorm_Level*0.02)*CoE_Multiplier
Total damage: ((327+0.198*Fire_Damage)*(1+Imp_Immolate_Level*0.0 5)*(1+Crit/100*(0.5+Ruin*0.5)*Meta_Crit_Gem_Bonus)+(615+0.653 *Fire_Damage)*Scorch_Multiplier*Misery_Multiplier* (1+Emberstorm_Level*0.02)*CoE_Multiplier

which in our case comes down to:
((327+0.198*2000)*1.25*(1+35/100*1.09))+(615+0.653*2000)*1.15*1.05*(1+5*0.02)*1 .1 = 4631

Shadowbolt damage for Destruction Warlock (leaving out high demo and affl talents):
(572+Shadow_Damage*(0.856+Shadow_Flame*0.04))*(1+T 6_4Set*0.06)*(1+Crit/100*(0.5+Ruin*0.5)*Meta_Crit_Gem_Bonus)*Sacrifice_ Bonus)*Shadow_Weaving_Multiplier*Misery_Multiplier **(1+Imp_ISB*0.04*ISB_Uptime)*CoE_Multiplier

which in our case comes down to:
(572+2000*(0.856+0.2))*1.06*(1+35/100*1.09)*1.15*1.1*1.05*(1+0.2*ISB_Uptime)*1.1
The only variable here is the ISB uptime. Let's assume that ISB is up all the time.
(572+2000*(0.856+0.2))*1.06*(1+35/100*1.09)*1.15*1.1*1.05*(1+0.2)*1.1 = 6891

Now, calculate the damage per time spent casting, which is 1.5 for Immolate and 2.48 with Shadowbolt with our Spell Haste. (1.5 for Immolate because even if Immolate cast time is lower than 1.5, GCD can't drop below 1.5 so it's effectively always 1.5, regardless of your Spell Haste.)

4631 / 1.5 = 3087
6891 / 2.48 = 2779

Why are my damage calculations here higher than what I posted above? Here I assumed 100% ISB uptime which REALLY ups SB damage, and I left out the 1% ghost miss which ups the damage of both Immolate and SB.

Maths don't lie. Immolate does more damage per time spent casting so you can either cast it and do optimal DPS or you can not cast it and do less DPS than you could be doing. edit: During Bloodlust you should of course drop Immolate because Immolate doesn't scale with haste at all.

nb: There are two reasons to use the spec I posted. The first is that it's without any doubt the highest DPS spec for Warlocks (because you should be using Immolate, as I have just proven), but the second is that it also allows you to sacrifice your Imp and do Immolate + Incinerates if you're in a raid that doesn't have a Shadowpriest but does have a Fire Mage. It happens occasionally. In that scenario the Fire rotation will outDPS the Shadow rotation and this spec allows you to do it.

[Yukarg]

It's simple maths.

Assuming the spec I posted, no spell resist (because that'll just cut damage by the same for both specs) and Succubus sacrificed for 15% more Shadow Damage.

Immolate damage:
Initial damage + DoT damage
Initial damage: ((327+0.198*Fire_Damage)*(1+Imp_Immolate_Level*0.0 5)*(1+Crit/100*(0.5+Ruin*0.5)*Meta_Crit_Gem_Bonus)
DoT damage: (615+0.653*Fire_Damage)*Scorch_Multiplier*Misery_M ultiplier*(1+Emberstorm_Level*0.02)*CoE_Multiplier
Total damage: ((327+0.198*Fire_Damage)*(1+Imp_Immolate_Level*0.0 5)*(1+Crit/100*(0.5+Ruin*0.5)*Meta_Crit_Gem_Bonus)+(615+0.653 *Fire_Damage)*Scorch_Multiplier*Misery_Multiplier* (1+Emberstorm_Level*0.02)*CoE_Multiplier

which in our case comes down to:
((327+0.198*2000)*1.25*(1+35/100*1.09))+(615+0.653*2000)*1.15*1.05*(1+5*0.02)*1 .1 = 4631

Shadowbolt damage for Destruction Warlock (leaving out high demo and affl talents):
(572+Shadow_Damage*(0.856+Shadow_Flame*0.04))*(1+T 6_4Set*0.06)*(1+Crit/100*(0.5+Ruin*0.5)*Meta_Crit_Gem_Bonus)*Sacrifice_ Bonus)*Shadow_Weaving_Multiplier*Misery_Multiplier **(1+Imp_ISB*0.04*ISB_Uptime)*CoE_Multiplier

which in our case comes down to:
(572+2000*(0.856+0.2))*1.06*(1+35/100*1.09)*1.15*1.1*1.05*(1+0.2*ISB_Uptime)*1.1
The only variable here is the ISB uptime. Let's assume that ISB is up all the time.
(572+2000*(0.856+0.2))*1.06*(1+35/100*1.09)*1.15*1.1*1.05*(1+0.2)*1.1 = 6891

Now, calculate the damage per time spent casting, which is 1.5 for Immolate and 2.48 with Shadowbolt with our Spell Haste. (1.5 for Immolate because even if Immolate cast time is lower than 1.5, GCD can't drop below 1.5 so it's effectively always 1.5, regardless of your Spell Haste.)

4631 / 1.5 = 3087
6891 / 2.48 = 2779

Why are my damage calculations here higher than what I posted above? Here I assumed 100% ISB uptime which REALLY ups SB damage, and I left out the 1% ghost miss which ups the damage of both Immolate and SB.

Maths don't lie. Immolate does more damage per time spent casting so you can either cast it and do optimal DPS or you can not cast it and do less DPS than you could be doing. edit: During Bloodlust you should of course drop Immolate because Immolate doesn't scale with haste at all.

nb: There are two reasons to use the spec I posted. The first is that it's without any doubt the highest DPS spec for Warlocks (because you should be using Immolate, as I have just proven), but the second is that it also allows you to sacrifice your Imp and do Immolate + Incinerates if you're in a raid that doesn't have a Shadowpriest but does have a Fire Mage. It happens occasionally. In that scenario the Fire rotation will outDPS the Shadow rotation and this spec allows you to do it.

Thanks for the breakdown. It definitely makes sense from damage/cast time perspective.

I was confused since you linked a destro spec and the topic was for afflic. But this is extremely solid logic and should in theory apply to any warlock spec. Thank you for posting the theory & numbers.

[poephoofd]

Thanks for the breakdown. It definitely makes sense from damage/cast time perspective.

I was confused since you linked a destro spec and the topic was for afflic. But this is extremely solid logic and should in theory apply to any warlock spec. Thank you for posting the theory & numbers.

Np ;) I just hope I can get rid of some of the misconceptions about Warlocks in the TBC community. I feel like it's the most misunderstood class in all of TBC.

[maxxeen]

GCD can and will be lower with passive/active haste effects

[poephoofd]

GCD can and will be lower with passive/active haste effects

My bad, forgot about the 2.4 change. Only makes Immolate even better than Shadowbolt though.

[Shirakus]

"GCD can't drop below 1.5"
oh boy it's can

[Vistaleon]

Get the "DrDamage" addon for TBC. It shows all the damage details as a spell tooltip, including realtime calculation for damage per cast.

Later expansion here:

[fires]

i don't wanna ruin your math, but 2.48 cast time for a sb means no haste. With avarage bt gear the cast time is around 2.26.

[poephoofd]

i don't wanna ruin your math, but 2.48 cast time for a sb means no haste. With avarage bt gear the cast time is around 2.26.

Urgh, **** it. I miscalculated with 1% haste instead of 5%, that's what you get for doing this sort of **** after a hard days work xD

Here are updated DCPTs of Immolate and SB with 10% haste (that would bring SB cast time to 2.27 sec):

Immolate: 4631 / 1.36 = 3405
SB: 6891 / 2.27 = 3036

[Dna714]

Urgh, **** it. I miscalculated with 1% haste instead of 5%, that's what you get for doing this sort of **** after a hard days work xD

Here are updated DCPTs of Immolate and SB with 10% haste (that would bring SB cast time to 2.27 sec):

Immolate: 4631 / 1.36 = 3405
SB: 6891 / 2.27 = 3036

This kinda proves your point as inaccurate imo. So your saying Immo give you 400 more damage per cast time which is fine if your getting all of the damage on your dot. In a proper Raid Comp this will never happen. With 2 Spriest(1 for healers 1 for Mages), 2 Deep Wounds for your Arms and Fury warrior, Bear tank, and 2 Fire mages your up to 38 Debuffs with the rest of the Standard Dps increasing debuffs/Judgements. This doesnt even account for any Curse of Dooms its only Tongues/Reck/Elements, most guilds run 3-4 locks b/c they want those curses. if all of those locks are doing Immo that debuff is 100% getting knocked off before it fully ticks which instantly makes this false. As good as it may look on paper in a real raid setting your Immo is not getting full Damage which is what it needs to do more Damage per cast time then Sbolt.

[poephoofd]

This kinda proves your point as inaccurate imo. So your saying Immo give you 400 more damage per cast time which is fine if your getting all of the damage on your dot. In a proper Raid Comp this will never happen. With 2 Spriest(1 for healers 1 for Mages), 2 Deep Wounds for your Arms and Fury warrior, Bear tank, and 2 Fire mages your up to 38 Debuffs with the rest of the Standard Dps increasing debuffs/Judgements. This doesnt even account for any Curse of Dooms its only Tongues/Reck/Elements, most guilds run 3-4 locks b/c they want those curses. if all of those locks are doing Immo that debuff is 100% getting knocked off before it fully ticks which instantly makes this false. As good as it may look on paper in a real raid setting your Immo is not getting full Damage which is what it needs to do more Damage per cast time then Sbolt.

TBH by that logic you might as well skip Improved Shadowbolt and drop Shadowpriests from the raid because their debuffs will just be thrown off the boss. There won't be many less organized raids that hit the 40 debuff limit. Bringing 2 SPs for example is something most raids won't do. Bringing 1 for healer mana + Shadow debuffs is what most raids do. It's not clear that the DPS loss of an additional SP justifies the DPS gain of boosting the Mages. Why not bring just 1 Mage and more Warlocks/Hunters instead? In extreme cases where you notice Immolate being thrown off stop casting it but if it's not getting thrown off there's no reason not to cast it.

In a very organized guild the raidleaders will decide which debuffs will and won't be put up on the boss. Immolate definitely has a low priority compared to important debuffs like CoR, CoE, Sunder, Faerie Fire etc etc. It's up to the raidleader to decide in those cases.

The debuff limit is definitely a concern but I would say, just cast Immolate unless you notice it's being thrown off due to the debuff limit.