WotLK Unholy vs Frost

[Gnimo]

From my knowledge, Frost is always better, on single target especialy, even with low gear and Strength gems.
Altho i never played Unholy on low gear, but as i geared my FDK i did outdps Unholy DKs with higher GS, without Shadowmourne (i was like 5.7 and they wer arround 6.2+, even now with 6184gs and 94% arp, i outdps BiS Udks without SM).

But again, it all depends on ur knowledge of the spec and rotation. Practice and master both, u will know the answer than.
Its always better to know them both since u will fit the raid spot better, and u can also change per boss if the raid has both buffs alrdy so u can do the best dps posible for that encounter.

I cant test it on my new DK and tell you for sure, since i have Havocs and no good 2hander for Unholy on top of ArP gems.

[ruven2508]

I started gearing another FDK like month ago...
Armory: "Aggramar".
I was doing fine with Strength gems at start, but, after i started getting ICC items i gemmed them with Arp, even tho i had barely 500 at first (since i didnt want to waste gold on regeming).
Strength gems are kinda better, untill u can reach 80-90% Arp with T10 2/5 bonus and with Sigil of Awareness.
But again, nothing of that will matter if u dont learn the rotation right and if u prio Frost Strike over Obliterate.
Have in mind that im in a good guild and that i know my ****, so getting in raids and getting gear is not a problem for me, if u pug, u might want to gem Strength right away, since god knows when will u get ur next item.
Also, i had A LOT of BoEs crafted when i started...
ToC chest and wrist, ICC legs and boots, trash neck and ring, Coined Havoc and DBW, since i got STS normal fro RS 25m... Im saying this so you dont go and try to copy paste me since i probably have better conditions than you.
All in all, try them both i guess.
They are both needed in raids equaly, get a two hander and two one handed weapons, get dual talent specialisation and try them both.
They can use the exact same gear with strength gems at start, just swap weps when u swap spec. See which one does more dps and go for it. Once u get more gear, test both again and go for that spec...

P.S. Frost is currently bugged from what i know.
Pestilence, while using Glyph of Disease, on single target wont refreah Icy Talons, and your dps will suffer by a lot cos of it.
Bug is reported and it will get fixed soon hopefully.
Untill than use the same Glyph and try to pestilence on 2+ targets whenever u can.
If there is only one target, simply use IT and PS to apply diseases and refresh Icy Talons.
Its a pain in the ***, you will do less dps, but its kinda fun since u have to think about things before you do them, and probably set them up while positioning or something... :D

Edit1:
Https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/69364
This is the report if anyone is interested in the details.
Read the comments aswell.

Edit2:
It is fixed. Just checked it.
Glyph of Diseases and Icy Talons are working fine.

Thank you for the answer. Can you tell me what your initial dps with those Boes and crafted items looked like?

As you said you know your ****, and i only do pugs so i dont know where my dps should be.

[angrylol]

What is absurd about my question?

I like unholy, like a lot. And with a low gs you can just stack strength/tempo as much as you can.
You can do this with frost as well but as i said i like unholy.

But i like one thing more than unholy, and thats doing high dps.

Thats why i have a frost and an unholy specc. So currently im playing as unholy but i want to know at which point (and my first guess was at arp soft cap) frost overtakes unholy in single target fights by such a big margin that i want to make the change and take frost as my "main" specc.

What is the environment you play in? Guild? Pugs? 10? 25?

You know raids composition is not heals, tanks and rest 18 frost DKs because high dmg. Actually I can't remember last time any boss enraged due lack of dps. Yea, rocking that recount is "cool", but you know what's better? Having good composition, where is place for frost and unholy. No one can do this BIG DEEEPS without that. So play unholy while your guild find another one to take your role. Then go frost and enjoy that top dps(which you won't be without unholy in raid).

[evoxy]

My recommendation is unholy. Its little more useful than frost. I see ppl alredy explain you why. And i can add to be careful with talents and gems. Do not skip Bone Shield and Wandering Plague talents. Also on yellow gems if you go for item bonus do not use only 10 str + 10 crit, cuz it's a mistake where many unh dks go wrong, 10str+10haste is better option. Also if you dont have tail or engen do not enchant your cloak with agi, take 23haste.
I have unh dk with 6.1gs and its almost never happen to frost dk with less then 6.4 outdps me, regardless of boss fight.
Also its very important to have good comp in raid, to be to be completely ready for raids (flask, potions with haste, etc.) and your pet must be fully buffed (in good guilds this should not be a problem).
Sry for bad english and i hope this will help you if you decide to play as unh.

[Gnimo]

@Rifokelt

Good DPS never dies!

@Evoxy
I will gladly take that challenge when it comes to FDK vs UDK any time.
Again, there is no chance a FDK loses to UDK on single target dps if UDK has no Shadowmourne.
As for Unholy talent tree, people ussualy skip speccing into BCB and Dirge which is a mistake, rather than skipping Bone Shield and Wandering.

Frost:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#jzZ...ofM0hxc:pakmVM
Unholy:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#jZG...zx0uIqo:sLbMmV

One could argue that Unholy Blight is better than 1/3 Morbidity, which is in almost 100% of single target boss encounters, but i find 1/3 Morbidity a lot more usefull when it comes to AoE dmg done.
(0.5% dmg lost on single target, tops)

When it comes to FDK DPS, the only thing i can give u is a dummy dps which u can compare to ur own, since who knows how ur and my raid comp is going to differ...

On a dummy with 6.5k gs bis FDK, u should be doing arround 8.2-8.5k dps after 5minutes and arround 2.5mil dmg done.

On a dummy as 6.2k gs FDK with 2/5 T10 set bonus (withoit 4/5 and no other set bonus) u should be doing 7.2-7.5k dps after 5min and arround 2.2mil dmg.

These tests wer done with self buff and food buff only, while dummy had no other debuffs than your own.

I will do another test with arround 4.5-5k gs, once i get my last trinket from DMF for Herald achivement itemisation set (226 ilvl or less gear and 232 ilvl weapons), and will post screenshots here with all 3 metters.

[pbch]

Gnimo you try another blood tank spec on Aggramar? Is glyph of rune tap good?

[Gnimo]

I used it for 2 Auras and some group Healing when i was farming Zul Gurub mounts, like 2months ago, didnt change it or to it ever since... :D

But i guess the spec is fine anyway as it is, aka it has its uses.

[evoxy]

Im orc unh dk (and I think that orc is better than other races for unh). Blood Fury (322 att pow - 15sec) and Command (5% dmg increesed by pets) they're just great for unh.
Blood-Caked Blade is very bad for unholy. Morbidity must be at 3 and i use unholy Blight. And for Glyphs i dont use Glyph of Icy Touch, my option is Glyph of Disease. Its not a same to test on dummy or in a real fight.

[Gnimo]

Woah, those Frost DKs u "rekt" wer really bad...

Glyph if Disease is bad for multiple reasons.
First and foremost is that you lose arround 50% of Wandering Plague procs. That talent has a 1sec icd, which means if both diseases deal dmg at the same time, there is only 1 posible Wandering Plague proc.
If u apply diseases manualy, u split their dmg, aka tick timer, and u are able to get Wandering Plague proc from both disease ticks. This is a great deal on single, and a huge deal on aoe dps.
Second, dmg from SS+Pestilence is equal to dmg from IT+PS+BS (this is especialy if u are not bis), and it also gives less runic power, on top of 1 less gcd which will result in downtime.
Glyph of Icy Touch buffs ur AoE dmg twice, buffing Frost Fever, and buffing Wandering Plague that procs from Frost Fever.

As for Blood Caked Blade, you do know that Melee is ur top dmg done?
Melee + Necrosis + BcB is a hell of a combo.
BCB is the best, rotation independent talent u can get, for all 3 specs when it comes to DK dps.
1 talent point in BCB is rougly 1% dps increase, and there is no other talent that can replace it, aka all other talents u get to reach the higher tier in Unholy tree wont increase ur dps by as much.

And Morbidity should be maxed at 2/3.
The only increase u get from Morbidity that u dont get from other talents is AoE dmg via DnD.
With 1/3 u can use it perfectly every 25sec.
With 2/3 u can use it perfectly every 20sec.
With 3/3 u can use it every 17-20sec depending on how well u spend ur runes.
5% dmg increase on DC is lower dmg increase than 1/3 BCB.

All in all, you proved my point about people that say:
Unholy > Frost, on single target,
with lower GS.
They (you) simply dont know what they (you) are talking about...

P.S. When it comes to testing gear and talents for 1 spec, aka Frost only, Unholy only, if it works on a dummy, its gona work in the raid aswell.
Meaning, if u did a dummy run without BCB, and u do it with BCB, while beeing Unholy in both cases, u can clearly see the dmg diference. Same goes for Glyph of IT vs Disease. U just need to know how and what to look while beeing objective.

Sorry if i look mean or anything, but u should read and do ur research better.

[Beanlord]

Morbidity must be at 3 and i use unholy Blight.

This is only relevant on a fight like Lich King or Halion 25hc where there is

1) relevant AoE to be dealt (discounting padding meters with ghouls and the like)
2) the targets that need to be AoE'ed down are alive long enough for more than one use of DnD or simply spawn in less than 30 second intervals

If those two conditions are present then it's worthwhile to pick up 3/3 morbidity and even moreso change the Dark Death glyph to a DnD glyph. For all other intents and purposes the max dps build with bcb, ub and dirge is the way to go.

[Gnimo]

Herald Gear - 4653 Gear Score (4/5 T8)
https://imgur.com/a/gpmyMWr

Icecrown Gear - 6154 Gear Score (4/5 T10)
https://imgur.com/a/4rKIhYM

The dummy is the only thing u can use to compare your to my own DPS/playstyle, since when it comes to raids, duo to diferent raid comp and overall raid dps, we will never be in the exact same conditions.

I was DPSing the Ebon Hold Dummy, that had no other debuffs than my own.
I started with the Opener from the guide:
IT > PS > BT+UA > Pesti > Obli > ERW
Obli > Obli > FS > Obli > FS > FS
and i stoped when ERW was ready again.

The thing u should focus more than the raw dps number (4.9k / 8k) is the ability count.
152/150 Obliterates
114/112 Frost Strikes
21/16 Howling Blasts
28/30 Blood Strikes
0/1 Pestilence Miss
Pestilence miss was the main reason why i have 2 less Obliterates and 2 extra Blood Strikes.
(i was a bit more greedy when i was DPSing with Ulduar gear, and i had more Rime procs)

If you manage to do this much Obliterates, Frost Strikes, Blood Strikes and Howling Blasts, on a 5min Dummy run, it doesnt matter how much your end dps is, you are doing the most DPS posible with the given RNG and Gear.

[Shyboys]

Gnimo my bro,since you mentioned it ,could you link Herald set for dk frost/unholy/blood dps and if there is difference on gems (arp,strength,ect).

[Gnimo]

Its in my FDK guide i think...
Altho, i didnt list (i forgot about those two trinkets) ToC 5m Banner and Darkmoon Card Greatness as BiS trinkets, since their proc has a really nice uptime.
Overall, any item combination that will cap ur Hit and Expertise and will have 1+ gem slot in each item is kinda bis for Herald.
Same goes for both Tank and DPS gear.

P.S. dont be afraid to use **** ton of Agility items, since they have better overall Stats and more Gem Slots.

[Shyboys]

Alright ,but what if u get those agility/arp items and furthermore gem arp.Is it worthy?

[Gnimo]

Armory "Frostreaper".
You can see the "BiS" Herald items on that DK.

If you use [Mjolnir Runestone] instead of DMC Greatness, trinket from Thorim, you can gem Armor Penetration untill you reach 732.
This way you will be soft capped without Trinket proc, and capped on Armor Penetration with [Mjolnir Runestone] trinket proc @1397 arp.

Otherwise, it wont matter how you gem tbh, both Strength and Arp will work almost exactly the same on that item level gear.

I might be wrong since i never tested Armor Penetration, so if you want you can ask someone, or use a Sim urself, to test it.