Bans- Refusing to play RDF

[Obnoxious]

Indeed it is my personal opinion and I voiced it to explore different perspective, my goal is not to get environment where I can scam and disrupt. I'm concerned about long term effect.

Tinfoil tick or not, environment guides behavior of people, intended or not. You made these rules because you believe this will improve quality, effect is something different than total zero on whole community - everyone is under threat of banhammer as "side effect" to achieve those AMAZING RDF's everyone keeps talking about. Every single person that ques up. That doesn't have broader effect?

Indeed. The environment with no guidelines and the expectation of no consequences if they aren't followed guided the behavior of people who stole items, scammed and so on. No one is "under the threat of banhammer," because no one has to steal items or demand to be kicked from RDFs to avoid a debuff. Yet once more, only those that want to do those activities are under that threat. Regular decent players won't feel anything, because they aren't going to do anything that puts them at risk from the start. The only "broader effect" is that decent players will feel reassured that, if they happen to find someone who wants to take advantage of certain game limitations, they can report that player and know something will happen.

I mean, goal can be that no one leaves, no one scams and no one ninja. Kinda boring and sterile.

Well, I'm not going to apologize for helping players have fun with reduced risk of that being ruined by someone, no matter if that makes it "boring and sterile" to you - somehow.

[angrylol]

My point was never to belittle anything. You say it is worth it and won't produce any relevant side effects in future of the game. I think otherwise. All good. I know smart people are behind this, so I trust it.

[Obnoxious]

You say it is worth it and won't produce any relevant side effects in future of the game.

Yes, I say that. These rules enforce punishment on behavior we don't want happening on our servers. The consequences for the average player are the same as rules against hacking and exploiting - do they "live under the threat of the banhammer" for hacking and cheating they don't do anyways?

[Beyle07]

At some point certain things just become indefensible. Yes, you can argue that players want to do fast and short dungeons because they have experienced the content since it was current. On the other hand there are players that have never played WotLK, and some of them haven't even played WoW before, this type of toxicity should not be allowed so I'm glad that a banishment is being handed out to players who are selfish enough to ruin the experience for others. I'm pretty experienced in this expansion and I'm normally in casual guilds (as I've grown super tired of hardcore raiding) and every day before this new rule there were at least 2 or 3 players daily complaining about how their dungeons went like.

[Topikaa]

Good job Warmane for punishing these rats.
Sadly they are not punched irl in additional.

[DamnOriginal]

What I find bizarre is the tendency that (thankfully) a small group of people have to complain about measures taken to ensure fair play, which will have no effect on anyone that doesn't partakes on stealing loot and/or acting like they are entitled to pick and choose random groups and dungeons and to have no repercussion for wasting the time of other players. The easiest leap of logic is to consider that they are being affect, so they complain. Or is there something more obscure, and which goes being "complaining for the sake of complaining"?

You're not ensuring fair play, you're just banning people who don't play fair, which wouldn't be necessary if you successfully ensured fair play in the first place. If you don't want this behavior from happening on your servers, why not just fix the bug that causes this behavior to exist in the first place? You're just ignoring the root of the problem and hacking away at the leaves. The preventative method actually protects your players from these situations, simply reacting with punishment doesn't. The fact that such a simple and straightforward observation is being disregarded as complaining, with some baseless accusations sprinkled on top, is what I call bizarre.

[Obnoxious]

You're not ensuring fair play, you're just banning people who don't play fair, which wouldn't be necessary if you successfully ensured fair play in the first place. If you don't want this behavior from happening on your servers, why not just fix the bug that causes this behavior to exist in the first place? You're just ignoring the root of the problem and hacking away at the leaves. The preventative method actually protects your players from these situations, simply reacting with punishment doesn't. The fact that such a simple and straightforward observation is being disregarded as complaining, with some baseless accusations sprinkled on top, is what I call bizarre.

"You're not making orange juice, you're making juice using oranges." Thanks for the laugh.

I don't know the reason for the bug you mention to not be fixed, but your lack of scope is clear. The debuff players get that keeps them from joining new RDF dungeons lasts 15 minutes, while the debuff for leaving the dungeon lasts 30 minutes. The biggest difference that would happen with the bug fixed would be people demanding to be kicked to get a 15 minutes debuff to avoid a 30 minutes one, instead of the current getting kicked for no debuff at all. People would still have a reason to see advantage in getting kicked. But yes, objectivity and scope are bizarre, I suppose.

[DamnOriginal]

"You're not making orange juice, you're making juice using oranges." Thanks for the laugh.

What a pointless strawman. Banning people who don't play fair is not the same as removing the option to not play fair. One ensures that fair play is the only option, the other is simply a response to failure to uphold fair play.

I don't know the reason for the bug you mention to not be fixed, but your lack of scope is clear. The debuff players get that keeps them from joining new RDF dungeons lasts 15 minutes, while the debuff for leaving the dungeon lasts 30 minutes. The biggest difference that would happen with the bug fixed would be people demanding to be kicked to get a 15 minutes debuff to avoid a 30 minutes one, instead of the current getting kicked for no debuff at all. People would still have a reason to see advantage in getting kicked. But yes, objectivity and scope are bizarre, I suppose.

There should also be a 15 min timer before you can start kicking people. I'm sure these people are going to waste 15 mins doing nothing just to get kicked and join another dungeon so they can spend another 15 mins clearing it when they can just clear the first dungeon in much less. After all, it's not like the whole reason they want to get kicked is so they can instantly re-queue for a shorter dungeon and spend less time, no, no, no. Wasn't the whole argument for these bans that they're exploiting the system? How would this still be considered an exploit if the system would be blizzlike? Suddenly 15 mins isn't good enough and would never work just like it never worked for retail, oh wait...

[Obnoxious]

What a pointless strawman. Banning people who don't play fair is not the same as removing the option to not play fair. One ensures that fair play is the only option, the other is simply a response to failure to uphold fair play.

Only two things ensure fair play: every single person playing fair or regulation to make sure those who don't are dealt with when it inevitably happens. I don't count personal delusions, of course.

There should also be a 15 min timer before you can start kicking people. I'm sure these people are going to waste 15 mins doing nothing just to get kicked and join another dungeon so they can spend another 15 mins clearing it when they can just clear the first dungeon in much less. After all, it's not like the whole reason they want to get kicked is so they can instantly re-queue for a shorter dungeon and spend less time, no, no, no.

If only that wasn't reduced to 60 second if you disconnect, right? Never mind that, though - if people would do the dungeon anyways, we get the exact same result with the threat of a ban, except we already have it covered in the rules for the cases of people who disrupt the run purposefully now. But that requires a scope less focused on nitty-picking to have something to whine about, I realize.

[DamnOriginal]

Only two things ensure fair play: every single person playing fair or regulation to make sure those who don't are dealt with when it inevitably happens. I don't count personal delusions, of course.

Or you know, patching up the holes in the system that the community has been exploiting for 5 years. No, that would never ensure fair play because 15 mins isn't fair enough for some reason even though it would be completely blizzlike.

If only that wasn't reduced to 60 second if you disconnect, right? Never mind that, though - if people would do the dungeon anyways, we get the exact same result with the threat of a ban, except we already have it covered in the rules for the cases of people who disrupt the run purposefully now. But that requires a scope less focused on nitty-picking to have something to whine about, I realize.

How dare I imply that maybe the dungeon finder system should get fixed before bans are handed out left and right for behavior that the bugged system has created. What a nitpicking whiner I am.

[Obnoxious]

Or you know, patching up the holes in the system that the community has been exploiting for 5 years. No, that would never ensure fair play because 15 mins isn't fair enough for some reason even though it would be completely blizzlike.

Already addressed in how it can be avoided by a disconnect that reduces the kick timer to 60 seconds if people are already prone to trying to abuse getting kicked.

What a nitpicking whiner I am.

At least we agree on something.

[DamnOriginal]

Already addressed in how it can be avoided by a disconnect that reduces the kick timer to 60 seconds if people are already prone to trying to abuse getting kicked.

But that's wrong. They'll always have to wait 15 mins because of their debuff regardless of whether they get kicked or not, unless they kill the last boss. This removes the incentive to leave and re-queue as the time you would spend doing that will be greater than if you just did the current dungeon. Saying that people will still do this regardless of whether dungeon finder gets fixed is just opinion at odds with reality. Why ignore features that clearly prevented this from happening on retail and instead proceed straight to banning people for habits that they've developed on your server specifically because of lack of aforementioned features?

[Obnoxious]

Saying that people will still do this regardless of whether dungeon finder gets fixed is just opinion at odds with reality.

Saying the won't, when they already act like they do, when some already do disconnect and come back 10 minutes later when they expect to already have been kicked, is just an opinion that ignores the reality pictured by the complains that caused the rule to be created.

Why ignore features that clearly prevented this from happening on retail and instead proceed straight to banning people for habits that they've developed on your server specifically because of lack of aforementioned features?

Why ignore the full variety of complains related by players? This isn't just about people wanting to do dungeons fast. That's actually the least reported behavior that led to the ruling. The common complains were generally around the lines of "I don't like this dungeon, kick me" and "you suck, I won't heal/tank for you, kick me." Both of those sound like people who aren't going to do the dungeon anyways, and who would pick the lesser debuff, be it none or 15 minutes + ~60 seconds from being kicked, than remain in the dungeon, especially the second case. Hence, even if the debuff was working, we would still have a behavior we aren't going to condone by looking the other way.

It's already being treated as a minor violation with a short ban, instead of a full-blown bug exploit. And seriously, if you don't like it, consider it dully noted. The rule exists for a reason, the reason extends further than what you wish would be fixed, and it will be enforced.

[tetriandoch07]

Saying the won't, when they already act like they do, when some already do disconnect and come back 10 minutes later when they expect to already have been kicked, is just an opinion that ignores the reality pictured by the complains that caused the rule to be created.


Why ignore the full variety of complains related by players? This isn't just about people wanting to do dungeons fast. That's actually the least reported behavior that led to the ruling. The common complains were generally around the lines of "I don't like this dungeon, kick me" and "you suck, I won't heal/tank for you, kick me." Both of those sound like people who aren't going to do the dungeon anyways, and who would pick the lesser debuff, be it none or 15 minutes + ~60 seconds from being kicked, than remain in the dungeon, especially the second case. Hence, even if the debuff was working, we would still have a behavior we aren't going to condone by looking the other way.

It's already being treated as a minor violation with a short ban, instead of a full-blown bug exploit. And seriously, if you don't like it, consider it dully noted. The rule exists for a reason, the reason extends further than what you wish would be fixed, and it will be enforced.

This has turned into such a big fiesta. I am so confused. Let's talk about this situation, that happened to me. I queued for rdf as tank, i got an rdf that i didnt like, so i saved myself to the dungeon then left with deserter debuff. Shortly after, i was getting spammed by the party members that i will get banned and many more other insults. I didnt ask for kick or anything, I just left, clear and simple. So what i'm asking, is saving myself to dungeons i dont like and then leaving with debuff bannable?

[Zcsxm2]

Greetings

No it's not bannable. You can leave and switch chars, this isn't the problem. The ban concerns 2 kinds of ppl:

1. Afks who joined rdf and don't do anything after (for example they teleport out and check ah. Or afks at start who ask for "kicks").

2. Ppl who ninjapull and provoke wipes (to get kicks)

In both cases, they disrupt the rdf mechanism and grp is forced to kick them otherwise you can't do that dungeon (tank/heal) or a dps is missing (longer fights, annoying). They avoid the 30min deserteur debuff (exploit) and waste everyone's time

Retail had a kick mechanism which gave a 30min deserteur-debuff for afks and ninjapullers after they got kick while the db was on cd (15min). That's why such ppl couldn't abuse it and join in the next grp/dungeon there, but I'm not sure when retail implemented that system exactly

Regards