As they said previously 15 teams over 1500 rating what competition are you even talking about?
Icecrown has 12k active players and 95% of them are even not playing arenas or simply they are focused on PvE.
Icecrown also has some custom stuff like transmog and is different thing than the outland.
Purchasing items on Outland has way bigger impact than purchasing items on Icecrown as there is way more people and people are progressing content with ease as it's active over past few years and on Outland not many guilds have progressed through content as a matter of fact only 2 guilds have managed to kill Kil'Jaeden for now and for your information brutal gladiator items are equal to latest tier end-game gear and small changes have bigger influence as the content is way stronger and rates are lower than they are on Icecrown.
Also this thread is posted on Outland sub-forum of the server that has different realms so if you are going to cry about how it's not fair go post in Icecrown as it's not the subject here. Outland is running way less than Icecrown and has way lower population so calculate the odds and see how many guild progressed end-game content on either realms. It's not our problem people don't play arenas on Icecrown and it's not our problem some people can't manage to get shoulders or any end-game items themselves, it's their problem they simply need to become better players and practice in order to get it. If you are any mature person you will know that money can't buy everything.
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That is competition. What it does show pretty clearly is that people have very little interest in arena. What you are basically saying is that you want X item not added on the store because you feel players must be forced to do something they dislike.
If arena was fun, people would do it. Not adding the item on the store would just force them to drop something they like doing for a "chore".
I did not say that the unrestricted store is the ONLY reason for Icecrown's success. Yet what you are misstaken about are Frostwolf and Neltharion. They died out for reasons not tied to the store, rather rates and poor bug fixing which in turn lead to complete ignorance.
It should indeed teach a lesson: That players obviously dislikes arena!
If people enjoyed the concept then you would see activity in those brackets, yet you don't. You are basically trying to tell people they have to do something they dislike just because you happen to like arena or want to bask in some sort of achivement of getting X arena item.
Which once again tells you that players don't find arena to be something worth doing in terms of enjoyment. Perhaps you should start thinking about solutions for how to make arena more attractive? For example host tournaments where only "odd" specs and combos may participate or with additional rules like no healer specs to see who emerges in the top.
It is true that the impact of the items is greater on Outland, yet the fact remains that BT came out in January this year and SWP late summer/early autumn - there have been ample time to do the content before the stuff got added to the store. Yet the question is, why are people bickering about this? The Warmane staff said that everything would eventually come on the store but would not be released immediately when the server was started.
Yet you must not forget that Icecrown has been up for several years and its end game content aswell.
When it comes to the players problems to get stuff, that's debatable. Some people lack time but got money, others got skill yet lack a good partner. Yet why can't people just enjoy the fact that they managed to get X arena item the classic way? If they can't just because other people can buy them then what is truly valued here is the rarity of the item and not the progress behind it.
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Well every warrior and their mum running around with s3 mace is bad enough... When they release s4 / t6,5 I'll definitely be done with pvp. I wouldn't even mind buying gear but only as long as that person has required rating...
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If you had the ability to get it and they had to donate for it then you should have nps beating them. So what exactly is the problem here? Are you being jealous of them being able to get something you had to work hard for with ease or that you lack the skill to beat them?
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@Ostlimpa
Are u Obnoxious parrot?
3s and 5s are NOT dead on Icecrown because ppl dislike these brackets.
In another thread I have already elaborated the reasons why these brackets are dead and I don't feel like repeating everything that has already been said.
And I never said that the unrestricted store is the ONLY reason for Neltharions decommission or Frostwolfs low pop.Edited: November 22, 2018
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If you mean it as being a parrot saying annoying things then yes I suppose that could fit. :D
On a more serious note, No I am not.
If you had 500-3k players queueing because they thought it was more fun than say BGs or world PvP or even 2v2 then the brackets would not be dead Jakkre. Carrots can be handed out to promote things but when you remove the carrots and let people decide on their own then you see what they prefer to do.
True, I guess we both presented our cases here in a blurred way.
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Yes, u can indeed see what content ppl prefer to do. Its not the content that they enjoy the most, its the content that rewards the best gear with least effort.
Just look on how many ppl are raiding ICC compared to Ulduar. Do u realy think they are all doing ICC because they enjoy it so much more than Ulduar?
Nope, they are just doing it for the better gear.
Its pretty much the same story when it comes to arena. Ppl prefer to queue 2s on Icecrown because its easier to accquire gear in this bracket. They only need to find one arena partner, then push to 1950 rating and buy the rest of the gear in the store.
In 3s they would have a harder time because opponents are more skilled and the +2k rating items are anyway bought from the shop.
When we look on Blackrock on the other hand we can see that 3s solo queue is more active than 2s there.
Why would ppl enjoy 3s on Blackrock more than on Icecrown?
I say they don't. Its just less effort to queue solo than finding a arena partner for 2s.
As u can see the activity of content never depends on how enjoyable the content is. It depends on how rewarding the content is.
In consequence Icecrowns 3s need to become more rewarding again so ppl play it.
After all that would only be blizzlike since 3s on retail was more rewarding than it is in here where shoulders and elite weapons don't require any 3s rating.Edited: November 22, 2018
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??? I'm not jealous... It's just unfair that they can get weapons that require 1800 raiting with incomplete s2 gear and it will get much worse if they release s4 / t6,5 on shop... to a ridiculous level
Edited: November 23, 2018
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Which tells you that people do what they enjoy. In this case it means they enjoy going for the BiS gear. Once they have it they look around for a new fun goal.
They do it because they enjoy working towards full BiS. Once they got full BiS they set a new goal.
And what do you know, people can find that to be fun.
Which tells you that they think the fun lies in getting full BiS, not how you get full BiS. Once they have the BiS gear - how many of them comes back to arena? Not that many by the looks of things.
Opponents are not more skilled in 3v3 than 2v2 or vice versa. It's two completely different arena settings. Just like a player being good in BGs can be a disaster in arena and the other way around.
The crux of the issue here is that you feel they do not deserve to get the items from the shop.
So it all boils down to the fact that people wants to do what they think is fun and they prefer to take the less painful route to do so and you believe this should be changed/prevented because you feel it is not right.
Actually that is exactly how it works. People do what they think is fun. In WoW a lot of the fun comes from gearing up your character in better equipment to increase your character's power. Once that goal is achived people look around for other funny things to do.
People do 2s more on Icecrown because it is less of a hassle to find 1x teammate to get good with than 2x. And once you see them having full BiS from arena, they often leave the arena scene in trade for stomping people in BGs.
So the conclussion is that people 1. Enjoy grinding full BiS. 2. Enjoy BGs more than Arenas once 1. is complete.
Sounds like jealousy to me.
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I think the main point you don't want to understand is here: if you let people buy everything on the store there is no new fun goal and people stop playing that content until there are no new fun content to play.
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If you bothered to read my previous posts then you would have had the answer to this statement.
People find new things to do. Some do quit the game and others start do more BGs or jump on an alt. It's up to the player.
Some players enjoy only the hunt for the gear. Others want full BiS and can only start enjoying the game once they got it. It depends on the player.
If people don't do arena over BGs or world PvP or duels once they got full BiS then that tells you that people do not like to do arena. Maybe they find it too limited in terms of X class or Y spec or Z comp? Maybe they dislike the arena "rules"? Maybe they want a more changing PvP environment and different fights?
You people go on about how arenas are avoided once the gear comes on the store instead of asking yourselves why people might avoid arena in the first place? Try to inspire people to do it instead of arguing they must be forced to do it.
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Banned
Then how does it come that fully decked out players don't do any new things? They are doing nothing but exactly the same content like players that are still gearing up. U can not tell me that nobody of these fully decked out players would be interested in doing something new such as 3s arena. The issue is much rather that such content is dead and the playerbase alone isn't cappable to revive it.
I keep reading this argument from Warmane staff that it would be in the hand of the players to revive dead content.
I say thats bull****. In the history of WoW it never ever happend that the playbase alone was cappable to self-organize and permanently revive any dead content that isn't necessary for gearing purpose.
Its much rather in the hand of Warmane to bring dead content back to life by giving out decent rewards for it.
The snowman event is a good example to demonstrate of how it is completly in the hand of Warmane to revive content.
During that event out of nowhere the entire realm was running around in otherwise dead areas to farm emblems.
The playerbase would never ever be able to organise such a event on their own because there is no reward that they could handout for doing it.
Pretty much the same applies to the 3s bracket of Icecrown. If Warmane would make it rewarding like back on retail then ppl would play it again.Edited: November 23, 2018
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That's because arena 3s is not new, nor are BGs. Both have been tested in the past and (get ready for this) the cold hard truth is that arena is viewed only by a rather small group of players and that "true skill" is tied to arena performance, yet the large majority obviously does not share that opinion. If people loved the arena concept and mechanics then they would play it.
I can not say why they dislike arena and favor BGs etc, but my guesses would be the following:
1. Arena is repetitive and dull, especially at higer levels. Same patterns over and over - in BGs it is the wild west.
2. Difficult to reach high in rankings because only a few certain classes/specs shines. In BGs any spec can shine and turn the tables depending on the enemy. And since the selection is so large and random it can allow less powerful specs/classes to play and still win.
3. Finding a good arena partner is problematic. Not only do you need to find someone to sync with but they must also play the right class, spec, have the skill, have a headset etc (if u shall go high). Some players just prefer to rely on themselves and not someone else.
While I can understand it is annoying that players do not do old content, think about it this way: Warmane tells you what you shall do - They have decided players must be forced to farm herbs/minerals and may not PvP/PvE - sounds fun right?
They already make certain events with rewards that are not game changing, they have to walk on a knife's edge to not make it too powerful yet good enough to provide a reason for joining in.
I agree this is a tough one to tackle but I must agree with Warmane - it is up to us players to decide what we want to do.
Well it is a bit much to expect an entire playerbase to come together, but certinly small groups and guilds have managed to do so. Twinking or RP are examples of this.
It is true that the snowman event attracted a lot of attention, but the fact remains it is not part of the normal game nor is it something players can organize even if they wanted to because it requires server changes, it can't be done ingame.
Nor can it be allowed to be kept up for too long. Once people got what they need - they leave for something more fun.
But the same argument can be made for eg 1v1 tournaments, 40v40 tournaments, role playing, exploring out of the box - the list goes on and on and on.
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U can not tell me that a realm with a 12k player pop has not enough players that are interested in 3s.
Even at molten times the old Warsong wotlk realm had a more active 3s ladder and it had barely 2k players at peak times.
The issue here is much rather that Warmane stopped caring about there competitve PvP playerbase.
The merge with Arena-tournament was a huge opportunity to bring the competitve pvp scene to a completely new level.
But instead they stopped hosting 3s tournaments and left the Blackrock realm to rot.
In consequences the competitve pvp scene left Warmane for other Arena-tournament like projects and is now happily promoting their pserver on our streaming side.
I know ppl like u or Obnoxious aren't able to see the issue here because u don't care about the competitve pvp community. U come up with bizarre explanations like nobody would be interested in competitve pvp instead of seeing the actual problem.
Thankfully there also seem to be ppl in the Warmane staff that see the actual problem.
I assume the development of cross-realm arena is Warmanes attempt to bring competitve PvP back to life.
Lets hope it gonna be a success.
Well, thats all rather wotlk related so lets talk a bit about Outlands pvp:
Right now we have a historical renaissance of the 5s arena bracket on Outland. Never in the history of a Pserver was 5s so active and 3s has a decent activity as well.
Isn't that a great thing? Shouldn't Warmane do everything in their power to keep these brackets active?
Isn't that more important than a bit more income from s4 shoulders and other items that reduce the incentive to play these brackets?
The reason I brought up the snowman event was to demonstrate how easy it is for Warmane to revive content and how it is completely in their hand what content is actively played.
Its obvious that highly customised content such as this shouldn't be kept up forever and thats also not my point.
Funnily enough most of the things that u mentioned are already beeing hosted as events.Edited: November 23, 2018
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Member
Listen, I understand that you might love arena and especially 3v3. I do not know why, nor do I care. What matters is that from the looks of things most people do not enjoy it. If they did enjoy it then they would play it, end of the story.
Like I said before, start coming up with good reasons for why people shall play 3v3 for the actual gameplay and not just by hanging a reward carrot on it. Tell them why it is fun to fight matches in tiny sandboxes over and over with the same patterns and specs repeating over and over. For that's the bloody truth of competitive arena and you know it.
It is you who's blinded by personal desires. ALL forms of PvP is competitive - it can be being R1 on killing blows in a RBG, rated RBGs like in cataclysm, getting the reputation of being one of the best duelists with X class, or a notorious reputation as a ganker or world PvPer - it is all competition. What matters is what one prefers to compete in. Arena is not the only competitive environment just because it happens to have something called rating.
I do not know what Obnoxious' stance on the PvP community is and nor do I care. I can only say that I care about the PvP competition but not just in one blasted field and if certain fields die out then there's a reason for that.
You speak once again as if Arena is the only form of competitive PvP. I believe Warmane have their reasons for doing what they do and we do not yet know if it will become a success or not. However one thing is clear: Arena died out on Icecrown for a reason and that reason will still exist even with this merge. Some people claim it is because X comps are too powerful and boring, others blame Shadowmourne, others blame human racial yet the result is nonetheless the same, people stop doing arena.
Firstly there have been other Pservers with active 5v5 and 3v3 but that's besides the point, we are talking Warmane here.
Secondly, Warmane should in my opinion do nothing and let players decide what they prefer. If they like the 5v5 and 3v3 then they will do it, and if they don't then they won't.
Thirdly, the item on the store stops the grind in arenas but if that grind was fun and easy then people would do it anyway. Not to mention you run into the issue with people just buying characters who have obtained the shoulders as sellers grind them just to sell them.
Slippery slope is what comes to my mind.
The point is: Where do you stop? There can be millions of ideas for these events and hundreds of players wanting each idea so where do you stop? Like I said, slippery slope.
In the end it is Warmane's server and they decide.
