Needing on DPS gear in RDF as a Tank - right or ninja?

[Disktrasa]

Actually from a guy doing a lot of RDF's at the time right before this ninja rule got implemented. RDF HC was in a really bad state, almost every single person was needing whatever they could just to sell it for gold.

Many of those people was rolling need just because thats what everyone did, Many of them i wispered asking if I could have it cause it was actually an uppgrade, some traded me the item for free, some demanded gold and some just outright ignored my plea.

Even Raids had a lot of ninjas, People saving bad gear on every slot so they can equip that bad item just to roll a item that dropped, to then sell it to the highest bidder, or to trade his guild friend, or simply just to watch you cry as that bis item slips trough your hands.
This still exists but not nearly in the same scale as before.

This system was made for ous, the players, and it helped out a lot.
There will always be people who try abusing the system to their advantage, that's exactly why the GM's are cautious with who they ban and why.

[angrylol]

I honestly don't know what you are talking about.
For decades people dealt with it as a part of the game - and it is, very smart people thought about it and put it in game.

Every time someone ninjed item in RDF everyone called it out, most of the time it was a new person who was afraid to pass on valuable and didn't know it was not for him and how it works. Some times it was some dude who thought he is most important person or only enchanter on realm. So people explained things or removed ninja and it was clear that people will not tolerate such behaviour. Underlying consequence was "no one will play with you" instead of "after 3 days I will have paid my due and my reputation will be clean again".

It was OBVIOUS that you can't gear up joining pugs. Baseline wasn't "I can trust anyone or papa Warmane will pull out belt". Trust had to be earned and people enjoyed to play and give their best to renown leaders who had earned respect. People who carried respected guild name could count on some level of trust. People made communities, joined guilds to play. It was alive. It was a baseline that DBW will be ninjed and newbies or naive pleayers were in for awakening. It brought out the very best in people and people who played fair and decent were kings of the hill, running around with all the best gear. It was clear that if they want the good stuff they have to find people to play with, not some randoms.

All this is a waste of GMs time and denying players important part of the game.

[Minami251]

Giggling at the fact that the GMs themselves don't align in their view on ninja policy.

To avoid further rage, just accept that this community is very egocentric and bend the rules to their point of view. Next time just setup a group manually and queue together.

[Disktrasa]

No, You cannot compare a free private server to retail, you just cant.
In retail PUG raids wiped 10 times on LK before they downed him, it was considered normal to wipe at least 10 times before you raid over, and most pug raids got to at least Sindragosa or LK, Why? Because they payed for 3 ICC raids each month and you wanted those raids to count, you didn't waste them, and don't forget the fact that they were much less geared then normal Warmane pugs.
If retail wotlk was like warmane and didn't have an expansion since 2009 guess how many pugs would clear ICC?

How many wipes does it take to raid over a pug raid on warmane? How many pugs reach lk? Thats right, because they don't care, guess why? It's free.
You don't pay to play, And the fact that Ignore list addons aren't even used on warmane proves that people just don't care.
If you played wotlk during retail you would know the difference.

It was OBVIOUS that you can't gear up joining pugs.
All this is a waste of GMs time and denying players important part of the game.

The majority of players in retaill, no wait, hell, when everyone was new, almost EVERYONE (if not even every single player) geared up joining pugs.
Supporting the players is far from "waste of time"
Denying an important part of the game? to get your loot stolen?...

I honestly don't know what you are talking about.

Right back at ya.

[angrylol]

No, You cannot compare a free private server to retail, you just cant.
In retail PUG raids wiped 10 times on LK before they downed him, it was considered normal to wipe at least 10 times before you raid over, and most pug raids got to at least Sindragosa or LK, Why? Because they payed for 3 ICC raids each month and you wanted those raids to count, you didn't waste them, and don't forget the fact that they were much less geared then normal Warmane pugs.

"It was clear that if they want the good stuff they have to find people to play with". Sure, I guess it was easier on retail, yet it's the same principle. Difference is 1 out of 100 is interested to seriously raid here. And you can't force people to behave good with tyranny, there is something weird about it, it won't be good in a long run.

If retail wotlk was like warmane and didn't have an expansion since 2009 guess how many pugs would clear ICC?

Sure, I'd say it would be higher percent of pop, but way less in real numbers. It was not all rainbows and all amazing clears either, you can drop pink glasses.

How many wipes does it take to raid over a pug raid on warmane? How many pugs reach lk? Thats right, because they don't care, guess why? It's free.

Yes, that makes perfect sense. So my argument is even more stronger. People put time in creating social circles and friends and now game has value. People don't log because they have cool item, people log because other people will see their cool item.

You don't pay to play, And the fact that Ignore list addons aren't even used on warmane proves that people just don't care.
If you played wotlk during retail you would know the difference.

If I ever put anyone in ignore list I clear it before I log out. Maybe I missed your point about this. More cancerous players? My argument is even more valid. Why would anyone need ignore addon if players don't have to do anything - Warmane will take care of it? There are only "good people", all the bad ones are banned or still have track marks on their arse and are "good" bois now. Why bother, its all sunshine and fluffy here on Warmane.

The majority of players in retaill, no wait, hell, when everyone was new, almost EVERYONE (if not even every single player) geared up joining pugs.

No that's absurd. You want to say people who push progression just find random dudes? No, they join guilds or create list of people who are interested in the same things(read - maximizing their success chance). Sure, I can "gear up" with pugs here too, get some 10 eof's and maybe some piece. I wonder how many had nice and geared toons by doing just pugs, even with "higher quality" of people on retail.

Supporting the players is far from "waste of time"
Denying an important part of the game? to get your loot stolen?...

Yes, it is a waste of time because players can resolve it themselves. It resonates with very essence of MMORPG. And it is important. I have friends with whom I play 10 years now and we met because some guy stole our loot. It is a part of game that I remember even now. If player is put in a bubble and he doesn't have to lift a finger to secure his own success - game REALLY has no value, you think anyone will have any vivid experience while playing? Something to remember if everything goes as expected? Writing a report and taking screenshots before every raid and anything you do is something to strive for? Great experience?

[Disktrasa]

No that's absurd. You want to say people who push progression just find random dudes?

Writing a report and taking screenshots before every raid and anything you do is something to strive for? Great experience?

I'm not talking about pushing progression, "Gearing" is a part all the way from fresh 80 to bis, you don't push progress at 2k gs.
The Anti ninja system was implemented to make that part (and yes even pushing progress in pugs if you do that) easier.
It wasn't put into work for the sole reason of only banning people, it's made to make ninjas at least reduce in numbers, which it has.

You are right at some points, it's not all dandy but it's a push in the right direction.
If the perfect system would existed I'm sure thy would have used it.

[angrylol]

Well, now people can join pugs and such with easier mind, get gear ready to start raiding with minimal risk of ninja. No need to find friends who has those 2k gs to do stuff together. No need to join guild. No need to learn to be a part of those things. No need to take care so people enjoy playing with you. Easy, a good thing on a surface.

Then do RO@GSB 100% LK runs. Run around alone. Then complain how toxic everything is, how pugs suck. Because that's direct effect of this. Being mute, never have social interaction in a social game, never being pushed to find a pack. Getting gear silly bit faster - is worth it? I don't think so.

More rules are never right direction. Especially rules that has downsides.

[Disktrasa]

Well, now people can join pugs and such with easier mind, get gear ready to start raiding with minimal risk of ninja. No need to find friends who has those 2k gs to do stuff together. No need to join guild. No need to learn to be a part of those things. No need to take care so people enjoy playing with you. Easy, a good thing on a surface.

Then do RO@GSB 100% LK runs. Run around alone. Then complain how toxic everything is, how pugs suck. Because that's direct effect of this. Being mute, never have social interaction in a social game, never being pushed to find a pack. Getting gear silly bit faster - is worth it? I don't think so.

I think you're missing the whole point, The progression of pug raids have no correlation with the anti ninja system.
You join guild and friends to clear harder content that casual players can't handle.

[angrylol]

But there is. People don't have one of mechanisms that push them to be better and learn to work in team and seeing value of it(because they will get the loot even if they go AFK mid fight). Leaders can't just NOT GIVE loot to people who are bad and hold raid back instead of doing their part. So each pug raid have few more "ferals" that could have been decent players that enjoy the raid - in a seamless and natural way instead of conscious choice which only few will make.

[Disktrasa]

People don't have one of mechanisms that push them to be better and learn to work in team and seeing value of it(because they will get the loot even if they go AFK mid fight).

And what would this so called "mechanism" be?

Leaders can't just NOT GIVE loot to people who are bad and hold raid back instead of doing their part.

There is no way you have never seen anyone getting loot banned or even in some cases kicked from the raid for performing terrible, It's your choice as a player in a 25man raid to perform your best IF you even want the raid to reach far, because more bosses down = more gear, and if you make it far, those lasts bosses drops gear some pugs could only dream of, so again, The raid isn't about the 1 guy handling the loot, it's all about the 24 other members who makes it even remotely possible.

[angrylol]

The mechanism is judgement from players, group and leader, it's out of their hands since anti-ninja rules. Sure you can kick player and hope to find replacement - which ends in RO more often than not(don't forget to give him fair chance to roll before remove him). You can't just say "you get no loot until you do your part" because leader instantly is at risk to get banned and has to collect evidence to defend himself, and even if he was in the right he will be banned and spend minimum 7 days for his defence to be reviewed. Creating raid is bureaucratic nightmare and people who want to lead just wont bother with it and wont become better at it - which makes pugs even more cancerous than ever.

Sure it's logical to do your best to get as far as possible - yet it conflicts with your own argument about game being free and having no value, so why would they bother to do their best? No one will ever tell them that they must do better, and if someone does it is just an insult, because all new players are in a safe space and never had to negotiate or reflect because "loot for me or report for ninja you so toxic". Experienced player showing ropes and mechanism for that is denying loot - is bannable. 24 players put their trust in leader to split the loot fairly and I really doubt that 24 players are very happy about some guy in a bubble who they have to carry taking items which they got and telling how much they suck because they called him out. I'd say that this rule is ninja paradise as people who don't deserve it will get loot. While people who share their experience and make quality of pugs better get banned for it.

Sure there are some *******s who just steal loot. But that is part of that mechanism above - people look for other people who will treat each other fairly according to rules they negotiate instead of raiding with shady leaders.

[Disktrasa]

don't forget to give him fair chance to roll before remove him.

Listen, Getting kicked for afking dosen't have anything in common with ninja items, And there is no way a GM would ban a person for kicking a toxic player out of their raid, unless they roll first and THEN he gets kicked, but then that's obvious.

You can't just say "you get no loot until you do your part" because leader instantly is at risk to get banned and has to collect evidence to defend himself, and even if he was in the right he will be banned and spend minimum 7 days for his defence to be reviewed.

Oh but they do, And as long as the leader says what the rules are before the raid starts, you are very much free to leave if you don't like it.
Most leaders actually lead the ICC raids because they make money from the BoE's and Primos they reserve, and most even state themselves that if you fail or mess up, you get loot banned.

Sure it's logical to do your best to get as far as possible - yet it conflicts with your own argument about game being free and having no value, so why would they bother to do their best?

That's just put straight out of context, I never said the game had "no value"
You said yourself it was "OBVIOUS" people couldn't gear up in pugs in retail.
While I stated that in retail people didn't raid over for silly reasons cause they payed to play 3 ICC's a month and most people DID in fact gear up in pugs just fine.

Is it bothersome to play as good as you can in a game you love?
if you think that you obviously don't like to play the game.

Sure there are some *******s who just steal loot. But that is part of that mechanism above - people look for other people who will treat each other fairly according to rules they negotiate instead of raiding with shady leaders.

Except there never was "some" it was a whole lot of players, more then you could possibly imagine, stealing loot because there was no punishment, Even name change is free, so what's there to be afraid of, steal away.

It's like you think the GM's will ban whoever gets a report filed against them, belive me, The GM's handling this issue takes a whole lot of things into consideration, they aren't stupid.
Do you actually know people who got banned from this despite being innocent?

[angrylol]

Listen, Getting kicked for afking dosen't have anything in common with ninja items, And there is no way a GM would ban a person for kicking a toxic player out of their raid, unless they roll first and THEN he gets kicked, but then that's obvious.



Oh but they do, And as long as the leader says what the rules are before the raid starts, you are very much free to leave if you don't like it.
Most leaders actually lead the ICC raids because they make money from the BoE's and Primos they reserve, and most even state themselves that if you fail or mess up, you get loot banned.

Why not? Rules are rules. No matter how bad or afk player is he is entitled to roll. Unless leader states different rules before start. And it is too easy to skip some pieces of evidence, so leader gets banned until his ticket gets reviewed, as I said. So what is worse, few guys stealing some items(that has good impact on playerbase in long run) or few guys framing leaders and putting them like a rats in a maze(this will kill playerbase, best scenario disfigure it into something vile)? Because, no matter how good GMs are or how perfect system is, there will be some unfair bans, cant dispute that. And what good are rules if GMs get to handpick which cases they enforce(this will not bring anything good in a long run either)? Rules are rules.
Unless they roll first?? So I can just take all items and it's all mine as long as no one rolls?

That's just put straight out of context, I never said the game had "no value"
You said yourself it was "OBVIOUS" people couldn't gear up in pugs in retail.
While I stated that in retail people didn't raid over for silly reasons cause they payed to play 3 ICC's a month and most people DID in fact gear up in pugs just fine.

Sure, I exaggerated. But there is logic underneath. We have more "people that don't want to clear raid" and rules that enforce such behaviour is not a good thing.

Is it bothersome to play as good as you can in a game you love?
if you think that you obviously don't like to play the game.

Then why these rules? If everyone wants to be as good as they can, why assume that people are out to steal stuff?

Except there never was "some" it was a whole lot of players, more then you could possibly imagine, stealing loot because there was no punishment, Even name change is free, so what's there to be afraid of, steal away.

I disagree, it was not that common. People learned lessons and people gained bad rep, eventually they were well known and couldn't get a raid together. And it was a valuable experience for players.

It's like you think the GM's will ban whoever gets a report filed against them, belive me, The GM's handling this issue takes a whole lot of things into consideration, they aren't stupid.
Do you actually know people who got banned from this despite being innocent?

They aren't stupid, but they aren't gods either. You must be very naive to think that this can't be exploited.
You should replace "innocent" with "fair", and good luck defining either of those, yet GMs have to do that if there is no clear-cut case. And yes, I know someone who was banned for "ninja", tough guy who reported gave half of evidence of what actually happened, yet it was enough to ban him, and he didn't have habit of shooting gb of screenshots at every raid. Rules are rules. I doubt he will ever lead any raids again outside of guild.

Edit;
There is nothing wrong with system itself. What's wrong is impact of it on "ecosystem". To remove surface level "bad experiences" lots of good things are removed too.

[Disktrasa]

They aren't stupid, but they aren't gods either. You must be very naive to think that this can't be exploited.

This can definitely be exploited.
Most people would agree and think out ways but the GM's definitely knows it as well, and that's most likely why even some posts pops up about it on the forums, people asking why the guy ninjaing items didn't even get banned.

I agree with a lot of people saying we need rules on this that specify what is considered ninja?
For example: If you make a ICC 25 and don't tell in global chatt that Primos and BoE is rserved (cause maybe your new and you think its so obvious) would you deserve a ban?

Should foolishness be punishable? well no, I don't think so.

[angrylol]

I definitely agree, sad thing is majority of bans go to new people who don't understand yet on what to roll and how it works. And instead of explaining or talking people confront them from high horse and make reports. Well, before all this nonsense my observation was 10 people who just don't know and 1 who actually had malicious intent - from all the ninjas.