saving private outland

[fiftyonefifty]

Another problem with the community is introduction of GS. It may give you a glimpse of a player's overall efficiency in a group environment, but asking for 3k GS in heroic dungeons is insane.

gearscore will always be apart of the game. people already with 3k gear want people of similar gear for fast runs. they dont want to waste time carrying people who probably have no experience to begin with.

my suggestion is to be a tank or do guild runs.

[Obnoxious]

I think a data-driven, reasoned response based on analytics would go a long way in settling the debate on population decline. While many narratives have been offered by the players, the narrative desperately needed is the one from the Warmane team who has access to all the data and can address each hypothesis. I'm sure the team has great insights, so encourage them to share with us!

Personally, I disagree. To be blunt, I see such analysis as being a waste of time.

Even if we were to invest the time required to pull data, separate it in whatever categories and this and that, we would still have no way to contextualize them. All we would have is a timeline, but that says nothing about the reasons people stopped playing, just when. The same way there might be people who left after the introduction of the Boogiemanglaives for reasons unrelated to that at all (which would be "accounted" for as "leaving because of it" by people), there might be people who left before that happened but still because of them, quitting when they heard it was going to happen (and those wouldn't be in the "omgomgomg Bogglaives" slice).

On top of that, whatever such analysis would have as a result wouldn't cause a population increase. There aren't droves of people at the gates just waiting to be told "people didn't leave because of X, they left because of Y." Without any actual positive result, it again strikes me as a waste of time and other resources for the sake of empty numbers that wouldn't bring any change.

Lastly, no matter what numbers we were to bring, history tells that the people who refuse to believe their personal narrative is correct wouldn't be dissuaded otherwise. We would get accused of faking/masking/tweaking the numbers, because they "personally know thirty-seven million people who quit because of <insert personal reason>." If you think I'm wrong, just take into consideration that to this day people come accuse us of faking populations, despite members of the community themselves debunking them.

Therefore, in my opinion, at best we would get numbers that people would go "oh I see" and everything continues the same; at worst we would get people arguing, saying that we didn't take into consideration this and that, or outright calling us liars over the data not matching their own reasons. One way or another the population - which to me is the only thing of concern here - wouldn't change because of such data. Still, if you continue to believe it's important, you can feel free to send a PM to someone like Proterean, encouraging it personally.

[Kaby7]

Imo, this could be the problem too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEMw...jrks2pw03c010c

[cdc4r21]

Personally, I disagree. To be blunt, I see such analysis as being a waste of time.

Even if we were to invest the time required to pull data, separate it in whatever categories and this and that, we would still have no way to contextualize them. All we would have is a timeline, but that says nothing about the reasons people stopped playing, just when. The same way there might be people who left after the introduction of the Boogiemanglaives for reasons unrelated to that at all (which would be "accounted" for as "leaving because of it" by people), there might be people who left before that happened but still because of them, quitting when they heard it was going to happen (and those wouldn't be in the "omgomgomg Bogglaives" slice).

On top of that, whatever such analysis would have as a result wouldn't cause a population increase. There aren't droves of people at the gates just waiting to be told "people didn't leave because of X, they left because of Y." Without any actual positive result, it again strikes me as a waste of time and other resources for the sake of empty numbers that wouldn't bring any change.

Lastly, no matter what numbers we were to bring, history tells that the people who refuse to believe their personal narrative is correct wouldn't be dissuaded otherwise. We would get accused of faking/masking/tweaking the numbers, because they "personally know thirty-seven million people who quit because of <insert personal reason>." If you think I'm wrong, just take into consideration that to this day people come accuse us of faking populations, despite members of the community themselves debunking them.

Therefore, in my opinion, at best we would get numbers that people would go "oh I see" and everything continues the same; at worst we would get people arguing, saying that we didn't take into consideration this and that, or outright calling us liars over the data not matching their own reasons. One way or another the population - which to me is the only thing of concern here - wouldn't change because of such data. Still, if you continue to believe it's important, you can feel free to send a PM to someone like Proterean, encouraging it personally.

My job revolves around using ambiguous data, categorizing it, contextualizing it, and driving revenue decisions based on it. From the limited view on my side, I can already tell there is more than enough data collected by the Warmane staff to make very solid assumptions.

The analysis itself doesn't help population, but a strategy to mitigate the cause of pop decline could be implemented depending on its findings.

I agree that it is impossible to convince everyone, but keep in mind there is a large audience of reasonable players and would-be players who see posts like that and decide to continue spending time somewhere they can see a dev team is acting logically and with good intent.

Thanks for the suggestion, I hope Proterean is open for a dialogue. I also appreciate your responses!

[Obnoxious]

My job revolves around using ambiguous data, categorizing it, contextualizing it, and driving revenue decisions based on it. From the limited view on my side, I can already tell there is more than enough data collected by the Warmane staff to make very solid assumptions.

But that's not what your post was about, or at least didn't sound like it. Or you would be satisfied with a simple statement like "the population decrease happened mostly because of X according to the data"? I don't think you would, and even if you were, it's clear that wouldn't apply to everyone else. Also, if you in fact work with that, you should be able to say that any assumptions made over "player loss x time" data wouldn't reflect actual reasons. I already even listed a few reasons why, but you just brushed it all aside and didn't address any of the problems I mentioned.

Abide make a long post, going over multiple reasons that work together to lower population, even inferring weights to their effect on the overall population loss. All the other posters ignored it and continued to just argue among themselves that their own personal reason is the right one.

The analysis itself doesn't help population, but a strategy to mitigate the cause of pop decline could be implemented depending on its findings.

You already received a post by Havoc stating we have analyzed things based on players' concerns and are working on tweaks to address them.

I agree that it is impossible to convince everyone, but keep in mind there is a large audience of reasonable players and would-be players who see posts like that and decide to continue spending time somewhere they can see a dev team is acting logically and with good intent.

Idem above. If you mean posts with detailed "categorizing and contextualizing" of data, I'll be skeptical that World of Warcraft's target audience is people who would really base their decision of staying or leaving a server on that. I'll even go "YOLO" here and say the lines "Uhm this server provides no categorized data about player loss, not worth being here" and "Ohoho! So much data and graphs and categories, I've finally found home!" have never been said by a WoW player.

[cdc4r21]

To be clear, do you believe the Warmane staff has enough data and the technical capability to make strong assumptions about population loss or not? If not, I concede my point.

If so, then essentially what I'm saying is that Havoc's post is exactly what is needed. Not only just for addressing raid nerfs, but the other potential causes for pop decline as well.

[Abide]

To be clear, do you believe the Warmane staff has enough data and the technical capability to make strong assumptions about population loss or not? If not, I concede my point.

If so, then essentially what I'm saying is that Havoc's post is exactly what is needed. Not only just for addressing raid nerfs, but the other potential causes for pop decline as well.

You don't seem to understand Obnoxious' point. The data being posted doesn't matter for us, people aren't going to just rejoin the server because the information is posted about when and why people left. If they left because of "Factor A", data showing that "Factor A" didn't make that many people leave won't make people come back. The data only matters on an internal level for future decision making on this server and other servers/similar issues.

[Negative93]

gearscore will always be apart of the game. people already with 3k gear want people of similar gear for fast runs. they dont want to waste time carrying people who probably have no experience to begin with.

my suggestion is to be a tank or do guild runs.

And you end up by having half population with 3k gs and another half with 1.5k gs which cannot do any dungeons because nobody wants them. And then people leave :) Also, as I remember, GS was not a part of TBC, and although I think it can help, its a pain in the *** as well. The biggest problem is transition from 1.9 to 2.2k GS to go for HCs, and that's where most people get stuck.

[Butkus]

stoped reading after this LMAO u saying 1v1's in tbc was balanced.

your a clear ***** who dosnt know what balance means.

you can stop reading all you want cause im stil loling at your "wrath is the bets pvp in wow history post"


1v1 in TBC was/is pretty well balanced yes other then hard counters like mage beats war and say hunter beats mages what the biggest issue in 1v1 for TBC?

but now let me ask you this.... how is 1v1 in wrath?from day 1 to last patch what classes could kill a dk 1v1?how about beat a pally 1v1? in wrath does mage still hard counter war? 1v1 and all other aspects in pvp in wrath was totally broken and less balanced then in TBC. blows my mind when peiople like you bad mouth TBC 1v1 yet you think wrath was blaced... what world do you live in?really?

more specs viable in 3v3 in wrath ONLY not better balanced!pvp was so broken in wrath blizz scrapped 2v2 and 5v5 was trash for the most part this in turn FORCED everyone to play 3v3. that alone gets more actives 3's cause the other brackets were broken and did not count anymore.

you get it now?people were forced into 3v3 in wrath and towards mid/end of the x-pac 3v3 was pretty good, but people were forced to paly 3v3 due to other broken aspects of pvp. if you really think TBC had bad 1v1 and wraths was good then your smoking some good stuff.

[Butkus]

LMAO i just looked back at this essay. this is the definition of the most clueless post.

how about you read what i said in the post you quoted before you write your next essay.

i said "TBC has, and always will, be known for its hardcore PVE content. TBC was never known for PVP"

when people think of TBC, they think of Black Temple, they think of Sunwell, they think of the leo fight in SSC, they think about the hardcore Kael fight for "Hand of Adal" title.

i said pvp was a great addition but it isnt what TBC was known for.

in your essay you write about how its better than wotlk pvp.

show me ANY active TBC pvp server LUL you cant. here in blackrock there is 800 people just soley playing wotlk pvp on peak hours because wotlk was known for its fun pvp.

pls learn to read before you make yourself and other people more stupid by reading your useless essays.

EDIT:
just skimmed over your wall of text again because i didnt read it all the first time, just responding to this.



i have no idea what you even mean or what you are trying tosay, what you said is too stupid to understand. so let me explain what i said.

the people who are playing on a TBC server, 98% are playing for the PVE experience.
case and point is how thousands of people would simply leave outland and all the work they did on their toons, and outland being in its final endgame point release. these people simply left to start over on another server to enjoy early PVE content again.

i was saying when warmane introduces a cash shop for people to SKIP the PVE grind of doing all the raids, whats to point of even playing?

you cant compare TBC to WOTLK because people loved to PVP on wotlk ASWELL as PVE

99% of the people who payed for shadowmourne wanted it for PVP.
just like how 99% of people who payed for catas edge wanted it for PVP

but unlike wotlk, tbc pve is 98% of the focus for people who love the expansion.

warmane thought they can make another icecrown server with a TBC expansion but it failed because 70% of the appeal of wotlk is its pvp. which is not the case for TBC.

"show me ANY active TBC pvp server"
was outland not doing well?is that not what this thread about?
i told you the issue we have now is that everyone is spread over 4 servers did i not?
yeah wraths pvp was the best cause private wraths erver has high population.....
wraths pvp was a big step back from TBC and wrath is where the problems started that we seen pretty much ruin wow today, you fans boys dont want to admit that.

"you cant compare TBC to WOTLK because people loved to PVP on wotlk ASWELL as PVE"
lmfao! yup people in TBC did not play wrath... and people in TBC sure did not pvp and pve at all....

[Butkus]

Another problem with the community is introduction of GS. It may give you a glimpse of a player's overall efficiency in a group environment, but asking for 3k GS in heroic dungeons is insane.

you can thank wrath baby's for that

[Kruschpakwins]

The biggest problem is transition from 1.9 to 2.2k GS to go for HCs, and that's where most people get stuck.

because there is only very few of them actually trying to get gear from pve only, you see all of those 2k gs players in battlegrounds and ofc the game is not fun when half your opponents are full s3/s4

[truthwow1]

The biggest problem is transition from 1.9 to 2.2k GS to go for HCs, and that's where most people get stuck.

because there is only very few of them actually trying to get gear from pve only, you see all of those 2k gs players in battlegrounds and ofc the game is not fun when half your opponents are full s3/s4

All these issues are caused by the x1 rates on rep and prof.
If these rates were x3 like the XP rates are then newcomers would buy the starter PvP set from the rep vendors before they do BGs.
With x3 rates on prof new PvEr would craft their own gear before they start with heroics.

[Hardlajno]

Most of it here is crap. I played in one of the best guilds on this server and i can tell you non of what people said here was that big of a deal.
Reason why we end it here, we simply cleared the content killed KJ around 10 times and there was nothing else to do here for us. We beat it enyoed it and thats it(bis gear dont mattered to us, most of our guys(core) were one or two items from bis). People moved to new servers and started again there.

What shop did to us was that we simply skipped dungeons and just focused on progress. Some bought items from shop which helped us more than hurt us.
We still went tier4 tier5 hyjal bt from time to time but only if we cleared progress or some of the new guys needed quests from t5 hyjal.
What we did we just gathered 5 6 and went with them those dungeons do the prequest do some BT for gear and went back to progress(not a big deal like some guys put it out to be).

Dont let me laugh about reputations,profs and other ****, no one had a problem with those not even on alts. I myself had 3 alts and had full reps full profs on all of them, again everyone putting it out there like being hardcore which is not at all. If those rates are high, even more players would have left.

And nerfs cmon you probably have no idea why those dungeons are tunned(hint-you can see that on top guilds videos if you are not dumb you will see why).
SSC TK- alright, ill give you that for tier 4 that grull was at few times undoable.
Hyjal- that was a joke of a dungeon
BT- was alright some bugs at start but okey
And for Sunwell - ive never had so much fun on private server, sunwell was tunned really well for this server(it was challenging but fun at the same time).

For me it was great experience here probably best private server ive been on in terms of stability(lagz and ****). But ill give you that after clearing it iam looking for fresh start. My input is and i think it always been that way, after releasing last of the content servers tend to decrease a lot, its just because top guilds cleared it and have no reason to stay(mains geared alts geared content cleared what else you can do, just look for a fresh start).

[Kruschpakwins]

Most of it here is crap. I played in one of the best guilds on this server and i can tell you non of what people said here was that big of a deal.
Reason why we end it here, we simply cleared the content killed KJ around 10 times and there was nothing else to do here for us. We beat it enyoed it and thats it(bis gear dont mattered to us, most of our guys(core) were one or two items from bis). People moved to new servers and started again there.

thats kind of the obvious reason when you quit but numbers dropped from 12k to 2-3k and i doubt 9k ppl quit because they've beaten KJ

try again