WotLK What do you think it the most OP PVP class on Warmane?

[Skoobydoo]

They want the old version ? You mean they want WotLK ? This server and patch is getting so old and so are some of us grumpy players :). What about a poll, something to see what people really want because if im in minority i will stfu on this topic permanently.

Its not like we want the whole game changed, or the actual racial for that matter, just buff the trinket a little bit. Do you agree humans are op in pvp ? Arent all the stats pointing out how dominant and powerful that racial is because if you dont agree it is then its pointless to argue whether or not to do anything about it.

I dont see how MM and cross-realms failing are indicative that any balance changes are going to suck too. Wasnt mercenary mode added to combat long queue times for Alliance, im sure it doesnt have anything to do with the fact alliance is much more played in pvp and there has to be a reason. Making a change which might pull pvp players back to horde might fix this in itself. The fact that custom changes are being made is what gave me hope that i would see pvp come to life for horde if anything is done about it.

Making a poll about "Do we make custom changes to balance the game" sound ok to me, but it have to be in game since only small portion of players are active in forums. What i am not OK with will be asking " Shall we nerf EMFH", and the reason for that is people who have never done any PVP or plan to do any PVP will be able to effect the results.

As for other points, i don't want to white wall of text about something that have been discussed already many times. In short my position about custom changes is that they lead to other custom changes. People already use the existence of current custom changes as argument to add new one. Here is quote that just confirm what i said.

What stops me from coming tomorrow and asking for another custom change for the better?
Nobody. When I see another huge issue appearing in the game which can only be solved with custom changes then I won't hesitate to point it out and try to find solutions.

In short my position is i wanna play 3.3.5 WOTLK, not custom fun server, its as simple as that.

Also i wanna point out cross-realm and MM didnt fail and cause the current BG situation. What failed was gear bracket. Before that at least half of Alliance players in BG was undergeared and it was not that hard to win as Horde. We had balance back them. sometimes it was impossible to win as Alliance for hours, sometimes you was constantly winning as Ally. Now if you are in higher GS bracket you will always face this competitive PVP Alliance players who are fully geared, so Horde are getting complete demolished pretty much all day.

[truthwow1]

O really is that how PVP work? You slap each other and everytime someone slap you hard you pop def CD and when you out of def cd you die. Is that how WOTLK pvp works?

Yep, you bring it to the point.
That's pretty much how arena works.
You just forgot to mention positioning and CC which are also important.

It's bull**** to say that double PvE trinkets wouldn't be OP because it's dmg can be mitigated with def CDs.
With that nonsense logic you could also argue that a green geared player has no disadvantage against a BiS geared player because he can just use def CDs to mitigate the dmg of the BiS geared player.

The reason why people play here not there is because they want the old version not the improved and balanced new version of the game.

That's just your opinion so don't speak for everyone.

In fact most custom features that Warmane implemented were widely accepted by the community.
Tmog and dual-spec in TBC were a great success and close to nobody complains about these features.
MM is actualy the first custom feature many players are unhappy with but ppl don't complain because its not blizzlike. They complain because BGs are unbalanced now and favor the alliance.
Instead of removing MM and let the alliance rot in the BG queue again, solutions should be found to make BGs more balanced.
Here comes the buffed PvP trinket into play that would make BiS geared PvPer join the horde side again and thus bring more balance to PvP.

You don't have to be afraid that this would be the beginning of a custom fun realm.
The essence of Wotlk wouldn't be changed.
It just small custom tweaks to balance things out.
Exactly the same will happen on retail with classic WoW.
A stagnant realm requires small balance changes or after a while when players begin to fine-tune their char everybody plays class X and race Y because it's superior to the rest

[Skoobydoo]

Yep, you bring it to the point.
That's pretty much how arena works.
You just forgot to mention positioning and CC which are also important.

Sound like PVP is way more complex then just forcing CDs and flat stats, which is what you claim.

It's bull**** to say that double PvE trinkets wouldn't be OP because it's dmg can be mitigated with def CDs.
With that nonsense logic you could also argue that a green geared player has no disadvantage against a BiS geared player because he can just use def CDs to mitigate the dmg of the BiS geared player.

So human racial is comparable to difference between WF and Green gear now? Yes i think you lost if buddy.

I feel like you lost track of what you was even saying. Your original point was that people can barely survive Warrior burst with Bladestorm and i responded that you can mitigate that with def CD. Then you claimed how you can force def cds first and then your opponent cant do anything for 2 mins till they come back, on which i pointed that in arms/holy comp there is so many def cds that this will never happen. In short i was responding to this claim.

It seems like you still fail to understand that arena is all about forcing the opponents deff CDs to kill them afterwards.

[Sisaleet]

Dont make one change because people will want more changes....sounds ridiculous to me. Dont make a vote because people who know nothing about pvp will vote...i mean so many nays to everything coming from you i feel like you either love that racial so much or simply hate change. I wont speculate, thank you for the discussion but i will have to agree to disagree.

[Skoobydoo]

Dont make one change because people will want more changes....sounds ridiculous to me. Dont make a vote because people who know nothing about pvp will vote...i mean so many nays to everything coming from you i feel like you either love that racial so much or simply hate change. I wont speculate, thank you for the discussion but i will have to agree to disagree.

Well i will speculate and say people who are so disturb by Human racial are players who are unable to improve in PVP and look for all kind of excuses to explain why they cant do better. Also you are correct i don't like changes when it comes to WOTLK, i openly already said that. Agree to disagree is fine by me, everyone are free to have their own opinions and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Sisaleet]

Well i will speculate and say people who are so disturb by Human racial are players who are unable to improve in PVP and look for all kind of excuses to explain why they cant do better.

Nice bait :). Took me some time to find all the other walls of texts you are talking about and man are you vocal against this type of changes wooo

[truthwow1]

@Skoobydoo
It's funny how you intentionally misinterpret the things I say to build your arguments around it.
Such a discussion can go on forever and isn't constructive in any way.
You can come up with more and more nonsense arguments why EMFH would be balanced but it doesn't change the fact that it's not.
Deal with it.

[Drkwispurr]

Well i will speculate and say people who are so disturb by Human racial are players who are unable to improve in PVP and look for all kind of excuses to explain why they cant do better. Also you are correct i don't like changes when it comes to WOTLK, i openly already said that. Agree to disagree is fine by me, everyone are free to have their own opinions and there is nothing wrong with that.

Just don't bother, really, let the bads be bads. I'm just going around and enjoy my blood elf rogue here and there and actually teste my racial ability. It's so gg agaisnt casters, and in some cases a free additional ambush due to energy restore. It's crucial when you use it on the right moment, believe me...
The problem is how easy is to get high end game gear here and the fact trinkets work passively so it looks like it turns things on easy mode to those who play human. But still, I'd rather face humans than orcs, but that's due to my class (:

[truthwow1]

Well i will speculate and say people who are so disturb by Human racial are players who are unable to improve in PVP and look for all kind of excuses to explain why they cant do better.

Just don't bother, really, let the bads be bads.

If you really believe that the reasons for the complains about the human racial is a l2p issue then you understood absolute nothing.

You didn't understand that the human racial is the reason for the disbalance between the horde and alliance faction in pvp.
You didn't understand that the human racial is the reason why the alliance outgears the horde in almost every BG.
You didn't understand that the human racial is the reason why you see only alliance teams in the arena ladder.
You didn't understand that the human racial is the reason why MM had to be implemented in the first place.

It seems like you aren't cappable to understand that all of that is caused by the human racial.
This has nothing to do with how good or bad smbd plays in PvP.

[Skoobydoo]

Just don't bother, really, let the bads be bads. I'm just going around and enjoy my blood elf rogue here and there and actually teste my racial ability. It's so gg agaisnt casters, and in some cases a free additional ambush due to energy restore. It's crucial when you use it on the right moment, believe me...
The problem is how easy is to get high end game gear here and the fact trinkets work passively so it looks like it turns things on easy mode to those who play human. But still, I'd rather face humans than orcs, but that's due to my class (:

You are right i shouldn't bother.

I believe you about belfs, use to play belf in cata servers for years and my paladin on Icecrown is also currently Belf. It make you feel like you have more control with the extra CC, i like it a lot. And yes i am sure as rogue or any other class that is stun depended you prefer to face Human then Orc.

[Mercy]

You're absolutely right, Sisaleet, Truthwow1, and others. But every time I try to say anything about it, I get a moderator ramming it down my throat, telling me to shut the hell up. Can't say ANYTHING about it, even when it makes sense. They don't want to hear it, and they don't want to fix it. Stats don't lie. Look at the 2s tree. It's no better in bgs, because of the sheer numbers on the alli side. Whatever. You're talking to ppl in 100% denial. And yet they still ***** about Q times on alli side. I wonder why???

Overreact much?

I accepted the fact that this will probably never change but is it because you want it to stay blizzlike ? Retail wow kept changing over time(new exp), meta with it including what is prevalent in pvp, but WotLK on Warmane is 3.3.5 forever....it only seems healthy to balance the game from time to time if indeed you would ever want to do that and if you actually believe there is serious imbalance. Maybe we are barking at a tree but i truly cannot see how that racial is ok.

The answer I give you depends on whether I'm giving my personal opinion on the matter, or my professional stance on it. I think you already have a pretty good idea of what the staff's stance is on the concept. My own personal preference is that I wouldn't be against minor tweaks for balance, but for the most part, I'd want to keep it as authentic and as blizzlike as possible.

It is not necessary to change EMFH itself.
It would already be enough to just add some extra resilience and a gem slot to the pvp trinket and consequently the human racial would be less superior to other racials.
- We would see more race diversity in high rated arena.
- We would have equal geared ally and horde in BGs because BiS geared pvper would also play on the horde side.
- WPvP would be more balanced.
- WG would be more balanced.

The benefits are overwhelming and all that is necessary would be a minor custom tweak on a SINGLE item.

You're right. I've had similar discussions with other members of the staff - parts of the staff that are more privy to design decisions, and their position mostly aligns with the "no changes" train of thought. I can understand their concerns about making changes, and while I may not personally agree with them, I do need make it clear to people that they can have their discussions but they don't need to go into the topic thinking that if they complain enough, changes may happen. It's not so much of "how much can I complain", but instead, we have to push the topic in a direction of how to convince them that such changes would truly be good for the server. So, these type of constructive comments are good and they do help more than you may think.

So, with that said, think of what the staff's concerns may be on any potential changes;
- Will it upset people? If so, how many and what kind of people exactly?
- Will there be people actually happy about how the change is handled?
- How will it affect the gearing process?
- How will it affect the various PvP scenes? (WPvP, Duels, BGs, 2's, 3's, 5's)
- How much of an effect will it have on the "feeling" of an authentic WotLK experience?
- Will it require custom changes to player clients?
- Is it a potential straw that will break the camel's back when it comes to custom content?

The list goes on, but this should give you a general idea of how the staff thinks about such things, and we need to have most - if not all - things lean towards favorable.

[AncientRiver]

"In short my position is i wanna play 3.3.5 WOTLK, not custom fun server, its as simple as that."

...says the guy who is playing on a custom server.

It is the very fact that it IS a custom server that has led us to this imbalance. On retail Wrath, almost NO ONE could PvP with two heroic PvE trinkets. On the Warmane (custom) server, virtually every human who is at all serious about PvP can (and does) play with two heroic PvE trinkets. And HERE is the problem. The racial wasn't broken on retail Wrath. It IS broken here, because so many ppl roll human (or faction change to human) and then promptly buy the two best trinkets in the game. THIS is what has created the imbalance. THIS is why we have a problem. It's created by the very fact that Warmane IS a custom server.

[Invictum]

Guys and girls, it’s BOOMKIN! Yes, BOOMKIN!

As long as you’re pro and have 2000 gearscore advantage.

Edit: Btw.. Mercy, that avatar is both gorgeous and hawt.

/roar

[Mercy]

"In short my position is i wanna play 3.3.5 WOTLK, not custom fun server, its as simple as that."

...says the guy who is playing on a custom server.

It is the very fact that it IS a custom server that has led us to this imbalance. On retail Wrath, almost NO ONE could PvP with two heroic PvE trinkets. On the Warmane (custom) server, virtually every human who is at all serious about PvP can (and does) play with two heroic PvE trinkets. And HERE is the problem. The racial wasn't broken on retail Wrath. It IS broken here, because so many ppl roll human (or faction change to human) and then promptly buy the two best trinkets in the game. THIS is what has created the imbalance. THIS is why we have a problem. It's created by the very fact that Warmane IS a custom server.

Your whole argument goes poof the moment someone mentions that the game wasn't designed to sit on the same patch for 10 years.
Besides, you're missing the point here. Either that, or your only interest is the complain. In which case, I'm going to have to ask you to contribute appropriately or cease posting. Your arguing for the sake of arguing isn't helping anyone. If you truly wanted the issue to be resolved, you'd either contribute or allow people to have a constructive discussion without interference.

[AncientRiver]

I'm sorry you think I'm just complaining for the sake of complaining. I've made this point before, and for the life of me I cannot understand how it can be interpreted as not a valid argument. To me, it's the ONLY valid argument. I remember playing PvP in retail Wrath, and it was nothing like this. I don't want to get in trouble for merely stating the case as I see it. My whole point is: this IS a custom server, and because of that, some of the features of the server that we all accepted when we came on Warmane (donating for gear) have created an unexpected consequence (the imbalance of the human racial). And *because it is* a custom server, it should not be unreasonable to fix this unexpected consequence. If that is not a valid point, I guess I know nothing and will just shut up. The least I would ask of you is to have you explain why my argument is wrong, instead of simply dismissing it.