Yes but just because we have custom changes don't mean everyone agree with them and love them. Your arguments is overall not wrong, if there is some custom stuff why not add some more. My problem is that is not clear when we will stop making custom changes if we use arguments like yours. Take BGs for example. People was complaining how low gear have to fight BIS gear, they added GS brackets. Then people start complaining about queue times, they added MM. Now people are complaining that 1 side is completely dominating BGs and the reason for that is Humans been OP so they need rebalance. So far all custom changes have made the gameplay way worst that it use to be before, i really don't think adding more will improve it.
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Member
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Banned
Well, I have to thank you for the reasoned response, Skooby. And I get what you're saying. I really do. But in reality, it's kind of a 'slippery slope' fallacy. You're right that we don't want to just make changes to the server all willy-nilly. That would not be in good faith. But surely we can make one very-merited change, and stop there - until and unless there is another very-merited change at some future point. Am I right? I agree with you and Mercy 100% that Warmane is not well served to just make every complaint into a server alteration. But I do sincerely believe that this one, single, asked-for alteration is a completely warranted and deserving change. Maybe I'm wrong. IDK. The bottom line is, that I could easily just faction change, and my own personal investment in the issue is solved. But in reality, I've put a hell of a lot of play time in on this server, and I really do like it here. I want it to be healthy. And right now, I don't think it's healthy. I think the server would benefit from a little more balance. I'm really trying to see this from all sides. I think a little buff to the PvP trinket could solve a lot of it. I've been asked to not just be complaining. I understand that. I would like to be among those who are offering a solution. I believe that a small buff to the PvP trinket would not completely resolve the issue, but at least it would be a step in the right direction. I'm really tired of trying to kill players that used to be on the horde side. many of them are former guildmates, and good ppl. I understand why they faction changed, but it hurts me to see them go. OK, I need to shut up now. But thanks for the reasoned discourse.
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Banned
The custom changes brought new issues to BGs but overall I'd say they still improved BGs.
Before gear based BGs there were no challenging and interesting fights whatsover. The side with less lowies was always completly dominating over the other and the outcome of each BG was already decided from the start.
Since we have gear based BGs these balanced BGs where both sides are equally geared do happen from time to time.
But the system doesn't work perfectly yet.
Imo a third BG bracket for players from 6-7k GS would be necessary but it would require a even amount of highend geared horde and alliance pvpers.
A buffed PvP trinket would make many highend geared humans switch to the horde side and thus such a highend BG bracket would be possible.
Another option would be cross-faction BGs on all wotlk realms which would make it possible to put all BiS geared pvpers in a seperate BG brackets.
PvP premades could face a team of BiS geared randoms and thus even for premades the fights would be some what challenging.
I think the vast majority wouldn't mind cross-faction BGs when they get balanced fights with equal geared players in return.Edited: May 3, 2019
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Field Medic Moderator
Slippery-slope is not a valid argument though. Nor is it constructive.
^
You may very well be right. But the change needs solid logical ground upon which to stand if such a change is ever to be made. That is all I'm saying.
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Member
That's not my argument, its statement. People do use the existing custom changes to say "lets add more", this already happen in multiple threads on the forum.
My argument is i don't wanna play funserver. Icecrown already feel on verge of funserver with transmog scrolls and GS bracket.Edited: May 3, 2019
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Member
the most OP PVP class on icecrown/wrath?
thats easy its dk's and pallys anyone who says otherwise is totally clueless! its funny reading over this thread and i said many of the same things along time ago and a few or the posters here told me i was wrong/dumb, lol right......
lets see dks broke 2v2 "and pvp as a whole in wrath" and blizz stopped balancing them and took away rewards from 2's. all 3 specs of dks are good in pvp with blood begin a dumb *** troll spec, frost and unholy are top end in every arena bracket top end in bgs and open world pvp there is no class better other then arguably pallys. dks in a group solo in bgs open world or arena are the most op'ed class in wow history period.
pallys just like dks i would say are a close 2nd most op'ed wrath class. ret is high end nothing it cant do and same goes for holy as it wanted for any and all aspects in pvp, with the right gear and spec are were almost unkillable. rets and dks can shine with many different healers wear a spec like arms HAS to have like a holy pally or many priest to allow it to be played to max level.
not only are both dk and pallys top in all aspects in pvp they are also top end in pve as dps tanks and healer.
for the "guy" saying arms/warriors are most op'ed "lol" cause 2v2... like i told you before 2v2 was broken by dks long before warriors got major work done and "got good" in 2v2, that class was dks and pallys. 1 spec arms got high end in 2v2 after major buffs to it and then some nerfs to dks and pallys, but thats just 1 bracket 2v2, that does not even really count unless you guys made special rules on icecrown. arms is not "the best/most op'ed" in 3v3 nor 5v5 and no way is arms even close to the best in bgs open world pvp and solo play = that goes to dks and pallys.
in wrath players were pretty much forced to play 3v3 = high #'s in that bracket due to 2's being broken and 5's being hmmm and open world and bgs were well broken and lopsided. and yes 100% the human racial was/is 100% op'ed same goes for all that H raid gear/weapon and trinkets.Edited: May 3, 2019
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Member
They WERE but are they still ? Dont see your point there really. Arms warrior is the king of 2s now. Mortal strike says hello !! But yeah i agree that dk and pala are godlike.
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Banned
Just out of curiosity, I looked through the current 2v2 standings (as of May 3, 2019) and this is what I found - Out of the 111 players within the 2v2 standings, here is the racial breakdown:
Human: 91
Night Elf: 15
Draenei: 1
Dwarf: 2
Gnome: 0
Blood Elf: 1
Orc: 1
Tauren: 0
Undead: 0
Troll: 0
Note: The 111 player figure is due to the fact that some teams have only one player currently, while other teams have up to four players. The total was 111 players. Out of the ten races, roughly 83% are one race - Human. Please stop insulting our intelligence by suggesting that there is no racial advantage. Two of the 111 players in the top 50 teams are Horde. All we are asking is a decent chance. It should not be too difficult to fix, but we first have to admit there is a problem.
One horde team and 49 Alliance teams.
Note: Edited because I can't add very well :-PEdited: May 4, 2019
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Banned
And these nightelfs and the draenei are only picked because their class can't be a human.
Otherwise they would also choose human.
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Member
I agree, if we all cant agree that there is imbalance how do we start to argue how to fix it if at all and some people simply refuse to awknowledge these statistics which in my eyes MORE than prove how little variety and balance there really is.
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Member
Someone should write the names of top team players and save them how msomewhere and if there is some changes to balance humans we should compare how many new names come in top teams and any are same old.. I bet the vast majority of top players will be exactly the same people, maybe some of them will swap race.
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Member
like i said arms is tops in 2's after being crap for the 1st half of wrath
but arms is only tops in 2's when teamed with who?thats right... holy pallys... and less often a priest. is arms king of 2's in double dps?not a chance its only high end when its pocket healed by the most op'ed "with dk's" in wrath.. pallys. rets holy and dks can and are high end in 2's with a bigger choice of healers then arms has. arms burst is not hard to counter = you cc the war but with say a holy pally with the war his dispells and freedoms is what allows a warrior to go ham.
and like i said arms is the "best" dps spec in 2's with the right conditions but that is only ONE bracket and its a bracket that does not really count and in no way can make warriors the most op'ed CLASS or spec in game. what about 3v3?5v5? open world pvp?bgs? 1v1's solo play? they are all part of the game play correct?matter of fact they count more then 2v2 does.
arms was dead for almost half of wrath it got major work something that blizz says they do not do unless a must. i think talents like juggernaut UA and a few others got added with arms rework mid wrath before that they were dead last. some posters in this thread says that does not count but it does it lead to what you see end game now. blizz had to give arms a role and that role is more or less MS bots in 3's when arms runs says TSG " with a pally and dk shocking" arms always have to have a more op'ed class backing it up....and no arms is not king of 3v3 = so they cant be the most op'ed pvp class or spec and that was the op's question.
yes you are correct dks and pallys are godlike or what blizz called them one man armies they are the most op'ed classes of wrath. like i said 2v2 should be the last bracket you guys look at because it was scrapped by blizz cause of dks and pallys, so unless there are special rules on icecrown look at 3v3 or 5v5 before looking at 2's.
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Member
Warriors, dks, paladins.
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Member
anyone with a brain knows the human racial was broken op'ed for years so stop defending that
also the top players on icecrown will always be the top players so your not going to see much difference but what you will see is them changing races., like you said. but that in no way means human racial is not op'ed matter of fact with all the top players playing human that should tell you it is.
its like saying shadowmoure is not op'ed cause everyone has it.......but the reason everyone has it/wants it is because it is op'ed......
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Banned
Whats your point?
If you think that we believe that the highest rated arena players are only in the top because of the human racial then you are mistaken. We don't believe that.
Everybody who is serious about arena is obligated to play human and picked that race a long time ago
High rated arena means human vs human so consequently the best players are in the top.
That however doesn't make the human racial less OP. The fact that everybody is forced to pick it just shows how overtuned it actually is.Edited: May 4, 2019
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