1. Most of the changes have been covered by the original post and the comments so will not add another wall of text regarding those. My only addition is going to be about this : 'Considering community feedback, difficulty of various encounters were adjusted on Lordaeron.'. Who was the community feedback provided from? Reading some of the changes I get the impression it was from people that have never played on Lordaeron. None of top guilds (AL/Raven/KappaXD) was ever contacted nor the mid-tier guilds(Argent Dawn/Utopie/Reveler etc).Most of those guilds have 1or 2 raiding groups with closed or still in progress content and I think they would be willing to provide any kind of info to the Dev team in order to improve this server.
    None can denie that the developers put big effort to make the changes, however most of them were not needed or were done in a way that doesn't accomplish anything. A better and more efficient use of time would be collecting info from the community and fixing game-breaking bugs(Rotface invisible ooze/Sindragosa 'bad' breath) that are open on bugtracker for a long time now.
    I really hope that for once the Warmane Team is gonna be willing to hear an actual feedback from the raiding community of Lordaeron.


    Cheers,
    Asidi.

  2. The feedback in the thread will be considered and improvements will be made wherever needed. Some of the nerfs were there to allow for more people to raid. ICC LK 25HC has been a really difficult thing on Lordaeron for a very long time. Overall, we think we did well with nerfs but there is room for improvements in corrections that were also applied to Icecrown.

    We will review the feedback and improve the situation where possible.

  3. But Proterean,all we ask is for changelogs to know what you changed?
    You just implied you nerfed LK25 HC and we are clueless about it,what exactly did you nerf there?

  4. The feedback in the thread will be considered and improvements will be made wherever needed. Some of the nerfs were there to allow for more people to raid. ICC LK 25HC has been a really difficult thing on Lordaeron for a very long time. Overall, we think we did well with nerfs but there is room for improvements in corrections that were also applied to Icecrown.

    We will review the feedback and improve the situation where possible.
    Protarean, thank you for the comment, it's really important and good to see that the staff reads these posts :) I'd like to say just one very important thing regarding Lich King 25 Heroic, and I'm sure most people will agree with me. LOD is SUPPOSED to be super hard and killable by only the best of the best guilds. If guilds weren't unable to kill it until now, that means they have to get better themselves, the current tuning of the boss is probably the best tuned it ever has been.

    Killing LOD is supposed to be big journey for the whole guild, mastering and farming all other bosses on Heroic difficulty, farming gear and then doing the final push of progression on it and killing it. The feeling you get when all that effort is finally repaid = undescribable and very fulfilling. For other bosses, tuning is what all other posts here are saying :) But please leave LOD alone as it is = it's perfect right now and it should be that way in the future (that is my humble opinion anyway).

  5. Completely agree with t4d3y. You can nerf whatever u want on LOD,still other guilds will fail on tactics if they are even ever able to pull it during the known bugs and difficulty of sindragosa hc. Don't kill the fun for the guilds already farming it,we legit 1 shot this fight,its just a matter of figuring how it works.

  6. But Proterean,all we ask is for changelogs to know what you changed?
    You just implied you nerfed LK25 HC and we are clueless about it,what exactly did you nerf there?
    The way changelogs are posted, is pretty much every few months. We do changes on all realms all the time. It takes a lot of time to write the changelog, because of the need to remove internal commits and many other things that cannot show up. So it's usually done by one person every few months to document all the changes. There will be a new changelog coming soon for all expansions. It's being written right now.

    Of course, the reason why it can be posted every few months is because usually there is no time-critical data. The feedback, other than players themselves, came from statistics as well. We were sad to see that only a very tiny minority gets to play the best of the best and that even that tiny minority has issues and are having to fuse together to continue raiding. This might not effect the very best of the best exactly, but there's plenty of people who are in this spot.

    Now, the nature of Lordaeron, is to be challenging, but not impossible and extremely punishing. We always intended to fine-tune the encounters based on feedback and we did it before, many times. We would usually announce a week before, especially when we would tune the encounters harder.

    This time, we posted on the same day it was applied. This was because we only really fine tuned the encounters slightly to make some of them easier. But also at the same time, we made changes for many encounters both on TBC and WoTLK to match the data we have that should be accurate. It is possible, that some of the things did not get correctly updated or failed to update properly, which is why also some players on Icecrown (which received no nerfs in terms of difficulty) also noticed major changes. We are investigating this and reviewing all posts in this thread, as well as other threads, to come to a conclusion and improve what's currently out there.

    Also, you might have noticed, that we did not post any of the numbers directly before either, only announcements of changes of values. There is a reason for this and it's not because we don't want to show the community the values. They are pretty obvious to anyone who comes into the raid, so why not post it, right? Well, it's not that simple. There are various reasons, why just posting the numbers, enrage times and the rest is not a good idea, but you can stay assured that we are indeed reading all of the feedback and that there are people assigned to work on this as we speak.

  7. Okay,appriciate the answer but I'm still going to be annoying and ask you for 2 crucial things to be done,I don't really care what else you will do since we already killed LOD almost 30 times in After Life so if you think nerfing the content will help the smaller guilds,go for it BUT.
    1. please fix Sindragosa melee stacks & frost breath during the grip (it results in wiping the raid bcs of bad scripting which simply tilts the raid if u add few personal mistakes on the next pulls)
    2. Nerf Lady HC ghost mechanics,they spawn too often and on top of that they don't work properly,so often they insta explode leaving you 0 counterplay which is not forgiving on Lordaeron,also its a 2nd boss in the raid and shouldn't be harder than any other end wing boss not to mention the loot it drops is not nearly worth doing it.

    Thanks for replying once again,feels good communicating with someone in charge,we bore your mods on Unnoficial Discord long enough =)

    GM of After Life

  8. The feedback in the thread will be considered and improvements will be made wherever needed. Some of the nerfs were there to allow for more people to raid. ICC LK 25HC has been a really difficult thing on Lordaeron for a very long time. Overall, we think we did well with nerfs but there is room for improvements in corrections that were also applied to Icecrown.

    We will review the feedback and improve the situation where possible.
    Hi Proterean,

    Just wanted to stress in-case you missed it that the majority of the bosses in ICC 25 right now (after Marrowgar) have virtually the same HP on 25 Normal and 25 Heroic.

    BPC, BQL, PP are all examples of this and they have the heroic values, Festergut/Rotface also have very close to the Hc HP values.

    It appears that unintentionally the HP levels for "normal" have been aligned with the new HC values.

    Apparently HP is bugged for the same bosses in 10 man as well but I haven't tried them myself.

  9. Okay,appriciate the answer but I'm still going to be annoying and ask you for 2 crucial things to be done,I don't really care what else you will do since we already killed LOD almost 30 times in After Life so if you think nerfing the content will help the smaller guilds,go for it BUT.
    1. please fix Sindragosa melee stacks & frost breath during the grip (it results in wiping the raid bcs of bad scripting which simply tilts the raid if u add few personal mistakes on the next pulls)
    2. Nerf Lady HC ghost mechanics,they spawn too often and on top of that they don't work properly,so often they insta explode leaving you 0 counterplay which is not forgiving on Lordaeron,also its a 2nd boss in the raid and shouldn't be harder than any other end wing boss not to mention the loot it drops is not nearly worth doing it.

    Thanks for replying once again,feels good communicating with someone in charge,we bore your mods on Unnoficial Discord long enough =)

    GM of After Life
    Nerfing content does not mean we will demean it. It will remain challenging, just not extremely punishing, and if there is an issue there it will be fixed.

    Sindragosa has been checked out, but it was not high on priority list. It was moved up and will be resolved likely before the next update. The second point will be reviewed as said above.

  10. Marrowgar seems to be way overtuned with that HP, as a first boss in the raid it should be one of the (if not THE MOST) easiest bosses. Unless the enrage timer is prolonged as well with that HP buff, I think it's a bad change for guilds who are progressing or even pugs.

    I like the BPC change, more HP but more time, so people would need to focus more and do mechanics instead of bursting it down.

  11. Thank you for posting Proterean, it actually means a lot to see that staff are interested and engaged with the actual community.

    I appreciate your reasons for lack of a changelog, though just want to re-iterate what Zakiie said regarding normal bosses - is this intended for some bosses to have similar/slightly different HP values from normal to HC? I'm thinking of Festergut, BPC and BQL here in particular.

    If so, there's little reason at all to do these on normal, so if your guild isn't ready for HC then you're either not doing them or you're practising to go straight into HC mode since the effort vs value reward of the two is out of balance.

    Again, I appreciate the work being taken to modify the game - but more communication as well would be terrific.

    Thanks!

  12. TL;DR version: Make normal modes with retail value (HP, enrage timer), unnerf heroic modes so they were like before, except LDW (gotta nerf her for about 20%-30%).

    Hey, I'm Aero from the guild <Raven>. I'd also like to give my personal opinion on the whole matter as part of the Lordaeron raiding community freedback. The reason is simply I LOVE Lordaeron and think it's one, if not THE, very best overall PvE oriented realms out there and I would very much like to see it stay in that place. Also, I am speaking stricktly from my, LOD farming guild, point of view, but since I am involved in the Lordaeron community quite well, I know mostly what kind of a mindset exist on the server. Lastly I also will mostly speak about 25 difficulty (N+HC), because that is what I am raiding the most.

    First I'd like to say that MOST of these difficulty changes were not needed and really don't make a lot of sense. For many top guilds the tuning was absolutely fine on pretty much all bosses. The only nerf everyone was asking about was only Lady Deathwhisper because she is quite buggy and completely overtuned. Everything else was completely fine.

    Now, I understand that the vast majority of serious raiding guilds do NOT farm LOD every week, but are killing about 7/12 bosses on Heroic difficulty, but that is completely fine. The harder Heroics SHOULD require great gameplay and min-maxing from their raiders because that is what makes a difference between a good guild and a "bad" one. And the majority of people don't posses that kind of skill, which basically means that the harder Heroic bosses are untouched by the less skilled players - but isn't that the whole point of this hardcore realm? Secondly, the better raiding guilds trying to kill a hard Heroic boss but are missing a kill by a few %? GOOD, that way, they will be able to really start min-maxing their gameplay and when they will finally learn and kill that hard boss, the feeling will be so much better and more rewarding as well as they will find new appreciation for the tuning - my point in all of this being, we all like to feel good about ourselves because we have done something hard that others didn't because we put alot of effort into it. And nerfing bosses takes most of the effort away now, not just from us, but from other progressing guilds as well.

    In this part I will try to explain my idea of the ideal server and hopefully most people would agree with me - and if not, it's fine. My ideal server would be one that would catter to both casual players not really interested in doing hard Heroic bosses and those of us, hardcore tryhard players aiming to conquer and farm the hardest of the hard Heroics. The answer to this is, in my opinion, quite simple: No ICC buff whatsoever (done on Lordaeron, so that's good), all bosses on normal difficulty are RETAIL value (HP, enrage timer) and all bosses on Heroic difficulty are buffed like they were before this nerf (+HP, enrage timer shortened), except Lady Deathwhisper nerfed abit. That way casual players will be able to enjoy the raiding scene without trying to put that much effort into it, pugs will thrive and allow to kill more bosses and allow us, hardcore raiders, the challenge we long for - and make us happy that only we are able to kill this stuff (which in the end matter most to all hc raiders anyway, isn't this why we're doing ti??). I think normal difficulty being the same as retail will allow for more players to be encouraged to raid here on Lordaeron, because there will be no stigma of it being casual-unfriendly realm, and that means more players will actaully want to start playing on the realm and somewhat boost player numbers.

    Anyway, that's my 2cents on the matter.
    Aero
    totally agree with this guy, if some guilds can kill LoD it means that LoD is not impossible as well as other bosses.
    i really dont undestand why you nerfed some bosses.
    all you have to do is nerf ldw hc, delete bug from gs, fix invisible ooze and pipes on rotface, stacks and breath on sindy, the rest is fine.
    I can give you a simple example of how guilds have to kill bosses. Imagine that average raid's gs is 6k and bql requires 240k raid dps. Guild cant kill bql and they are trying to improve their dps, their bite order, positioining etc, after some wipes this guild finally killied bql with the same gear. And that is exactly what should happening with progressive guilds. My point is that gear stays the same but skill of raid is improving.

    Daxo, beer soul 8/12 icc25 hc

  13. We seem to have high end guild’s point of view already so this is going to be feedback from someone in a guild with pretty much 11/12+3hc in ICC25 on farm. In general the changes to HCs seem reasonable. People on this thread seem to have some issues with BPC hc, but we never really tried them so hard to say for me.

    Lord Marrowgar Hc: We had it on farm for 1-2 months, killed him in this week’s run. Added hp made it a little longer but still manageable. This buff seems unnecessary but in the end its whatever I guess, just makes killing it for the first time a little harder.

    Lady: Did it on normal, didnt feel much different.

    Gunship hc: Yea, still gunship

    DBS hc: We had it on farm for like a month now. Killed him this week without issues. Felt pretty much the same, but we didn’t have all the core people in raid this week so probably going to be easier with the standard group. In general in my opinion it was fine before the nerf and is still fine now.

    Rotface: Did it on normal this week, didn’t feel any different. From what I hear wasn’t changed pretty much at all, prob for the better as its fine as it is. As others said invisible ooze + PP flooding the room after wipe makes it annoying.

    Festergut: Did it on normal, dont really know if he had his max HP increased, but i felt like he had. I dont really see a reason why would you increase his HP on normal, most of the pug groups cant down him already. The nerf to his HC health pool seems reasonable, not really sure if necessary.
    PP: Killed him on normal. Now this is the one I struggle to understand. We progressed him couple of months ago and pretty much one-shot him ever since. I’ll admit that the group we had this week was utter garbage, but PP seemed so much harder. We ended up killing it with 3 tanks for the last phase because otherwise we wouldn’t have enough damage to kill it before 2 tanks would die from stacks. I know damage on PP is all about abom, but that was definitely not an issue since the guy on abom was pretty much flawless, finished phase 2 with around 25k dps. I don’t understand why would you make it that much harder on normal, it felt just about right before the changes.

    BPC: Killed them on normal. Now this is another fight I don’t really understand why it was changed. From what I see you added 15M hp to them, don’t really know why because they seemed fine before. Then on top of that on the first target switch they healed for 30-35%. Ended up oneshotting them anyways, but still don’t really understand this change.

    Blood Queen: Now this one must be straight up a fatfinger mistake. Pretty much same amount of Hp on normal and heroic version. No way that is correct. Nerf to heroic version seems nice, going to make progressing her a little easier. Also I’ve heard a rumour that the hard enrage timer has been removed, would be great if someone would confirm it.

    Didn’t have time left to do VDW, and Sindi, but in general VDW was fine on normal and all Sindi needed was fix to chill to the bone and "bad breath".

    In summary:

    changes to heroic ICC 25: positive,
    changes to normal ICC 25: unnecessary in most cases, hard to understand others (especially PP and BQL)

  14. One thing about BQL 25HC change that I think people fail to understand is the scale of the enrage timer extension. Let me elaborate:

    - You burn the largest portion of her HP during the last phase, when 16 people in your raid have been bitten (double damage). If you hit enrage timer on previous version (~5:05), that phase would last about 30 seconds.

    - While progressing, you have to 4-heal this fight, which means you have 2 tanks and 19 dps. At this stage of progress of an average guild, you have some people doing 13k+ dps, most of them sitting there 10k, 11k, but let's assume for easier calculation that average dps of a raid member is 11k (it is more). If 16 of your dpsers have been bitten, and 3 haven't, that makes it 16x22 + 3x11 = 385k dps. Add bloodlust, cooldowns, execution phase, pots and tank dmg, this will easily rise to at least 450k raid dps.So, a minimum of 450k raid dps with 16 people bitten in last phase.

    - 450k raid dps means that in previous version, you would get 450k*30=13.5m million hp of BQL down in those 30 sec (it's closer to 15m-20m in reality). If you extend enrage timer by another 25 seconds (I'm pretty sure new one is 5:30), that means that in last phase you would down 450k*55=24.75m hp (also, in reality, that would be closer to 30m).

    - The difference of last phase damage output (24.75m vs 13.5m) means that the enrage timer change has nerfed the boss by another 11.25m hp, very rough calculation and probably inaccurate but you get the picture, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. So, instead of a 3.6m hp initial nerf, this feels like a 14.85m nerf of a boss, or a 19% hp nerf.

    That is very far from a reasonable nerf. Even if it was half of this, it would still be too much.

    Peace out,

    Doomche

  15. We have already started changing some things and noticed some issues in the changes. Please keep in mind that the update might not come for a few days while we check everything out as it requires multiple instances of testing. The issues that were mentioned as critical, will also be repaired on the same update.

    This does not include the "invisible ooze" issue for now, as we need to investigate more than the encounter itself to find the root cause of the problem. However, we're committed to fixing it. It just might not be on that update.

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