1. May 26, 2019  

    Raid loot rules

    Where can I find a rules about handing out the items that dropped on raid? I am primarily interested in controversial situations like leather items with arp for plates, 2h weapon for shaman enh or spirit for dps.

    An item with spirit dropped and it was won by a mage. Raid leader gave it to priest discipline that had a second roll. Is it ninja looting?

  2. May 28, 2019  
    Yes it's ninja.
    Spirit does not equal healer item.

    There's only 2 stats that defines a Healer or DPS items, and that's Hit rating and mp5s, anyone saying spirit = healer have no idea what their talking about.
    Almost every single "BiS" piece for healers have crit / haste, same applies to DPS, with some hit into it as well.
    Spirit items can be used by every single Spell RDPS since they ALL get some sort of bonus from it.
    That being said Holy paladins "bis" legs have hit rating.

    Leather items for plate users is ok, almost every plate class have some leather items as the end gear parts.
    Enh shaman with 2hander ain't a thing anymore so that's just stupid.

    It's rather complex to make rules on whats considered ninja or not since it all depends on what exact item is in question.
    Edited: May 28, 2019

  3. May 29, 2019  
    On some spirit items healer could get prio.
    Like the marrow neck is bis for rdudu and so they should get prio.
    Same goed for leather items like tosk being bis for 4 classes.
    After these 4 pass, someone like for example a hunter could roll for it. (Even tho its trash for them)
    Atleast this all is my opinion.

    A good leader knows these priorities and should follow them.
    And should also state before the raid, BiS>Ms>Os>De/mog or w/e.


    Regarding the mage thing.
    Unless one of the prio rules apply, he would have simply won.

  4. May 30, 2019  
    One should NOT join raid just for sake of joining one if rules are not clear,and if you see loot system its not going to work.Find another raid.People should ask about rules for sake of taking SS,and letting raid leader know,that you recording every item he received and you will record item distribution.

    Even if you don't,they cant know for certain,which gives them doubt and which gives you much less chance of getting scammed.

    If you end up getting scammed,tricked and robbed even tho you said you will record everything,then its really bad luck,because morons obviously are willing to risk 120 and 300 days bans over one item,which they would get 20 times and more,if they haven't been banned.

    I simply don't get people like that.Everyone knows if you scam,and there's a proof of it,you WILL get banned.There's no MAYBE.You WILL 100%,and people still do this kind of ****,especially in 10 and 25 raids,where chance of getting away with stealing is less than 0.01% .

    Believe it or not,this is the true story.

    I joined icc 25 once (as MS healer,and no spec switch because i play healer only) It took us quite some time to get to Fester.I saw people aren't serious,and half of people left,so i left as well.I was no leader at any point,nor i had anything to do with leader and items.I didn't even need items,since there was no HC kills,and i knew that moment i joined.

    So...I left raid,and logged off.Tomorrow i had whisp from one guy 'did you get the item yesterday' I said i won nothing,because i rolled on nothing because i left long before raid was able to roll on items.Dude said leader told him,how he gave me lead (for some strange reason) just for one boss specifically,he passed lead to me,and once we killed boss,i took dps shoulders,gave him lead back,and logged off.

    Strange enough,4 days after,that same leader had dps shoulders equipped.Item stolen,which he tried to pin on me.

    This is just sad story,and honestly i was afraid for a good month.I was expecting to get banned because of degenerate's lies,because i didn't know how they possibly could find out if he ever gave me lead and how they could check items he received and items i did not get in this case.I think i was afraid more that they won't even investigate nothing,they will automatically ban without investigations.

    It makes me sad,how someone people get so low,they would sell their soul just to get item.Its not like you don't need people to play with.If you steal items,people will hear about it eventually,and you will end up being ignored by half population.

    Sorry for long post brothers,but im trying to keep you updated on recent scam attempts.
    Edited: May 30, 2019

  5. May 30, 2019  
    The first thing you MUST do when you join a pug is to be aware of the rules. If the raid leaders says: "Plate classes can't roll for any leather items." You have to deal with it. Even if that leather item could be a useful item for your warrior, you have to deal with it and there's nothing to complain about, because you were informed of the rules and by staying in the raid it's common sense you agreed with them.

    So there are no rules to find around regarding on how to roll for items because that's something that the RL decides entirely and it's up to you if you want to accept them or not.

  6. June 4, 2019  
    Would be best if all leaders went "BIS loot is reserved to roll for the classes that it's best for" all the rest is rolled normally.
    That way we dont have the mage stealing the resto druids neck on marrow just to replace it with the hit / haste one from gunship.

  7. June 4, 2019  
    /facepalm @ rules

    why should be there any rules regarding loot ? if the raid leader decides to ninja, gg for him. for the rest of you, get a guild.

  8. June 4, 2019  
    To put it simply, if you join a raid where no one talks and it was set on group loot, then if an item is better than yours and you can use it, you can roll need on it. Doesn't matter if it has +mp5 and spirit > crit / haste for a mage/priest/warlock. If it is an improvement, then you can roll need on it.

    Now a good leader or guild won't operate this way because obviously a heal spec benefits more than dmg from mp5 in most cases, so it's up to you to join a raid where the leader either states his rules that items better for healers go to healers, items better for rogues go to rogues vs hunter/warrior, etc... Same for guilds which usually use DKP/EGPG anyway.

    In the case of rdf/pug though, a mage can roll need on an mp5 item if it is improvement of spirit/intellect, etc.. because it is an improvement, even if better for healer, doesn't mean the person is being a ninja.


    An item with spirit dropped and it was won by a mage. Raid leader gave it to priest discipline that had a second roll. Is it ninja looting?
    To answer this specifically. This is definitely ninja unless the raid leader had stated in rules before. Mages get crit from spirit with molten armor so maybe it is better on the healer but still an upgrade for the mage and doesn't mean the mage was ninja'ing.
    Edited: June 4, 2019

  9. June 4, 2019  

    In the case of rdf/pug though, a mage can roll need on an mp5 item if it is improvement of spirit/intellect, etc.. because it is an improvement, even if better for healer, doesn't mean the person is being a ninja.
    Can, but shouldn't. Need on mp5 item as a mage in rdf, is in short, dps needing on heal item. And you know you roll for the spec you join in as in RDF, otherwise it's a ninja.

    To answer this specifically. This is definitely ninja unless the raid leader had stated in rules before. Mages get crit from spirit with molten armor so maybe it is better on the healer but still an upgrade for the mage and doesn't mean the mage was ninja'ing.
    "Definitely ninja", mot really. It depends on item rolled and what the mage, and the priest, have equipped.
    Yes, there are dps classes that gets SMALL gains from spirit, doesn't mean they should roll for any item that is higher gs and has spirit on it.
    Fire mages loves spirit+crit items. Beyond fire mages there are no other caster DPS BiS items with spirit.
    Slight exception being alternative demo BiS that focuses on getting SP (via SP+spirit items) to buff raid, last one of those I saw was early/mid 2015. If this is even a thing anymore.

    A point though. Some "non-HC BiS items" or "BiS if HC" as some people call them, aren't always better than their EoF variants.

  10. June 5, 2019  
    "Definitely ninja", mot really. It depends on item rolled and what the mage, and the priest, have equipped.
    Yes, there are dps classes that gets SMALL gains from spirit, doesn't mean they should roll for any item that is higher gs and has spirit on it.
    Fire mages loves spirit+crit items. Beyond fire mages there are no other caster DPS BiS items with spirit.
    Slight exception being alternative demo BiS that focuses on getting SP (via SP+spirit items) to buff raid, last one of those I saw was early/mid 2015. If this is even a thing anymore.
    fire mage, warlocks, shadow priest, resto druid, holy priest, moonkin druid benefit from spirit more than disc priest, if they get "SMALL gains" from spirit, disc gets even less.

  11. June 5, 2019  
    fire mage, warlocks, shadow priest, resto druid, holy priest, moonkin druid benefit from spirit more than disc priest, if they get "SMALL gains" from spirit, disc gets even less.
    Excuse you?
    First of all, spirit is far and above the most powerful and needed regen stat for a Discipline Priest appropriately geared out of ICC+. If you think that Intellect or Rapture are enough for longevity on the longer and tougher fights, then I would argue that you haven't spent enough time on said fights.
    Secondly, why are we putting Holy and Discipline in different baskets? Any healer Priest worth anything should be willing and able to switch between the two when it's necessary for them to do so.

  12. June 6, 2019  
    Can, but shouldn't. Need on mp5 item as a mage in rdf, is in short, dps needing on heal item. And you know you roll for the spec you join in as in RDF, otherwise it's a ninja.



    "Definitely ninja", mot really. It depends on item rolled and what the mage, and the priest, have equipped.
    Yes, there are dps classes that gets SMALL gains from spirit, doesn't mean they should roll for any item that is higher gs and has spirit on it.
    Fire mages loves spirit+crit items. Beyond fire mages there are no other caster DPS BiS items with spirit.
    Slight exception being alternative demo BiS that focuses on getting SP (via SP+spirit items) to buff raid, last one of those I saw was early/mid 2015. If this is even a thing anymore.

    A point though. Some "non-HC BiS items" or "BiS if HC" as some people call them, aren't always better than their EoF variants.

    See this is where I don't disagree with you, but you can't dispute what I said.

    I know a respectable mage dps wouldn't bother rolling need on an mp5 item, especially in a guild, especially in a Icc 25 / hc 25, however, based on the rules, an upgrade is upgrade no matter how small. That's all I am saying.

    When people who are noobs roll need on mp5 items as a mage because it's a small upgrade, they shouldn't be banned for being noobs and taking an item better than a healer. I know it isn't necessarily the right thing to do, but you can argue that the person rationally believes they are upgrading their item even if it is insignificant / better for someone else. Correct me if I am wrong.

  13. June 7, 2019  
    See this is where I don't disagree with you, but you can't dispute what I said.

    I know a respectable mage dps wouldn't bother rolling need on an mp5 item, especially in a guild, especially in a Icc 25 / hc 25, however, based on the rules, an upgrade is upgrade no matter how small. That's all I am saying.

    When people who are noobs roll need on mp5 items as a mage because it's a small upgrade, they shouldn't be banned for being noobs and taking an item better than a healer. I know it isn't necessarily the right thing to do, but you can argue that the person rationally believes they are upgrading their item even if it is insignificant / better for someone else. Correct me if I am wrong.
    Understandable.
    Thoughts on "an upgrade is upgrade": Are these upgrades based on gs, item level, recount values, or itemization? Willing to say it's all about gs/ilvl. 219 vs 251 necklace, I could agree it being an upgrade. 251 (haste/crit) vs 264 (crit/mp5) ring for a mage? I doubt that, should mage be let roll for it on MS? No. OS? Yes.

    Any reasonable person would understand what they should roll, and when. I once met a hunter who rolled for stamina int pvp gear (really, aimed for shamans, but classes were: hunter, shaman), he won it. Tried to talk to him, but it didn't help. I reported him, response I got wasn't expected. Response was regarding player's poor game knowledge, so there was no punishment. Although, I admit, full term (probably a first timer, so 30 days) ninja ban for that would've been bit too much.

    Pugs carry their own risks. Gotta live with that, if you join one. Clarify the loot rules before you get saved.

  14. June 8, 2019  
    Yeah, I don't exactly know how Warmane exactly goes about it, I am just speaking from anecdotal experience I guess. I know GM's probably try to be consistent, but I doubt they are 100%. I think upgrade being an upgrade is based on stats gained or ilvl, but idk if that's true, but from my personal experience, that seemed to be the factors when a ninja got banned versus not.

    I think players shouldn't be banned on poor game knowledge, so maybe I would agree with that GM, but also I agree with you that people should be reasonable, then this shouldn't be an issue, but I guess there is the issue. People aren't reasonable and try to get every little gain they can, especially since the atmosphere of the server is GS based and not skill when pugging, so people are quick to just try and get their share and bounce.

  15. Essentially, should a person make a report on a Raid Lead for something like this, it boils down to the ideology of the GM itself, like the example OhieMitzen gave. Sure maybe the GM that read his Ticket realized "okay, the guy is obviously clueless and doesn't know much about the game, let's not be too harsh on him", but I imagine you could also have a straight polar opposite of a GM reacting in form of "Right, Spellpower on Hunters, we aren't in Classic, good joke, see you in 30 days.".
    There is no hard text to look up on whether "Spirit is a priority stat for healers" or "Plates can roll on Leather". Nowadays the rule itself is as inconsistent as the game-knowledge of each player (including GM). Some cases are more obvious than others, for instance literally all BiS Lists for plates including several Leather pieces, but some can be up in the air sometimes. Most common examples are "is DBW for ret?" and "is Spirit for DPS?"
    But I personally believe this isn't what the "Ninja Rule" has been initially laid out for. I always believed the Ninja-looting rule was strictly made to counteract people stealing loot from an obviously rightful winner, like if the Raid Leader goes offline or disbands the raid after looting DBW HC.
    But nowadays when people don't get every item that dropped, they lash out and look for any reason to get the responsible person banned, because if they can't get the satisfaction from loot, they'll get it from potentially getting the person banned. What's the worst that could happen? Getting a "no"?
    Without any feedback on these cases from Staff, it always becomes irritating to lead a raid and then have Mr. Retadin call you a "massive ******" for not letting him roll on DBW and that he "will report you, so have fun playing in 60 days again." and not being 100% sure that you won't really get banned by an unlucky GM.
    Edited: June 12, 2019

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