Ninja looting - banned for 5 days

[angrylol]

We have these absurd anti-ninja rules that 5 people nagged forums about and staff somehow toguht it's a good idea. And now if you NEED stuff you are at the mercy of others with banhammer hanging above head, doesn't matter if you needed to "not DE it!" or whatever. While you prove your innocence its already over. It's so far out of possibility to create rock-solid rules about this - it would be 20 pages of logic, not to mention removing another aspect of game. So I better shut up before staff gets super defensive and squashes me.

P.S.
Yeah, greed is not good enough.
Solution could be creating greed roll priority above disenchant. I wander since wotlk came out why it not like this since beginning. As enchanting your MS could be meant hugher priority than someones os or what did Blizzard meant by this? Or they actually let players sort at least something out themselves as a part of game, to make friends and enemies? Is there a quote out there about this?

[Skoobydoo]

@Skoobydoo
You seem like a guy that will rather wait 2 more hours for raid to fill, or wait 30more min in a que, than to roll against 1 more player for a piece of item.
Its really amazing if you ask me, how people can get butthurt over an item from a 5m dungeon that is repeatable on a daily bases.
You get in a 5m dungeon, you dont get an item, you come back tomorrow, repeat, just to eventually sell the item for 2 gold cos you will get 10 times better item in the first raid you get in.
And for the love of god, lets pretend we are talking about those 5m dungeons that actually drop good items like ToC, FoS, PoS, HoR, cos if you ask me, I would personally permaban people that made a "ninja" report for any dungeon that drops a 200ilvl blue/epic from the original wotlk dungeon set (if i had the power tho).

I think people should have a choice, do they wanna wait 30 mins in queue, or roll against one more person. You are not to decide that for them, by ninja rolling w/o asking other people are they OK with it. And stop talking about dungeons loot like they are complete useless. If it was so useless, why you wanna ninja loot the item at first place? And why does someone have to come tomorrow and after tomorrow to farm item that already dropped, just because the tank ninja loot it? How is that making any sense at all? How about the ninja looter come back tomorrow and keep farming this item, till someone let him have it?

OK sure lets pretend we are talking about the good dungeons like FOS/POS/HOR, who btw are also in RDF list and they do drop pretty good items. Needle-Encrusted Scorpion is good example of a trinket that keep getting ninja looted and its actually really good item. It may take few weeks or even months till you replace it with something better. So are you saying that is OK for tanks and healers to roll for it just because they also want it, regardless of their role?

Let me ask you this tho...
If someone has a best in slot tanking or a healer set, and knows how to play a game, and can carry/speed up your run by a lot, would you rather him equip a 200ilvl dps gear and get another potentially bad healer/tank on top of his bad dps, than to just simply have 1/4 less chance to win an item, that again, YOU WILL REPLACE IN THE FIRST 25m RAID (or a 10m heroic).

Oooo yes because WOTLK hcs are sooo hard, that people need someone to carry them....Just because you are geared don't mean you carry everyone else and you can roll for whatever you feel like.

[Gnimo]

@Obnoxious
I know, thats why I stated that I know my words and opinion wont change anything, did I?

@Skoobydoo
I dont know why are you trying to make it about me?
I cant care less about rdf loot since I eather point out whole Herald set, before I start a new alt, and use it untill I get better gear from raids, and I coin out some end game items that are hard to get, and farm the rest of them, in raids again.
And just to make it clear, I am not defending ninjas, I am simply sick of dumb players yelling "NINJA" every time they see something that they dont like.
(The other day in VoA some scrub yelled "NINJA LIDR, RAPORTD!" while rolling on gear he couldnt even use in the first place)
I feel that people on warmane that report others on "ninja looting" in dungeons are simply butthurt sjw snowflakes of the real world.

Anyone has the right to roll on any gear they want, regardless of the spec they play at the moment. I dont understand what gives you the right to say the oposite.
If someone wants to gear their 2nd spec, and they enter a dungeon as a tank or a healer, if they say: "MS dps", at the start, why should they be the one that have to leave and not the butthurt greedy dps? I guess they should que as dps, and do minimal dmg with that gear so they can roll? Please...
Again, if you say ms dps, that doesnt give you some super good rng or a better chance to win the item, others simply have 1 more player they roll against, its NOT the end of the world you know?
Needle-Encrusted Scorpion, is just an overated trinket most people dont even know how it works, so u are using a bad example there. Regardless, 245 hit trinket from emblems and 200 arp trinket from ToC are perfect replacements, not to mention 239 commets trail from point shop. So again, ot the end of the world, and an item that will be replaced soon enough.

Noone said wotlk dungeons are hard. People are simply bad overall. There wer number of times where i did 80% of the overall dmg in a 5m dungeon as a prot dps warrior, if that doesnt give me the right to roll on w/e i want, i dont know what does (same goes for any other player). But i guess a random DK with 264 spellpower item just to boost his gs, that does no dmg, has a right to call me a Ninja?

You are basing your argument on wrong reasons if you ask me. It shouldnt be about: "healer cant roll dps items cos he is a healer!", especially if he is busting his *** doing a great job healing, while the dps does nothing except yell NINJA! If you slack, you shouldnt roll on anything, if you are a good boi and do a good job, feel free to roll w/e u said u will at the start kf the dungeon.

Lets have a look at retail again, since Warmane does tend to be as close to "retail like exp" as it can (there are some changes that are not "retail like" on this server that are good tho, so...).
Rdf loot system has its own prio. Clothers cant need plate. Platers cant need lether, even tho some of those lether items are preraid bis for them.

[Disktrasa]

That's right, you just missed one thing - you can roll GREED as every decent player does 15 years already. I wonder why you think that is funny?

I wonder how these people whuld react when some DPS starts to NEED on his tank items when he needs them. I bet they would lose it, make reports and big blankets on forums about how toxic everyone is and how everyone is literally ninja stealing everything to get 10g from vendor.

It was a joke, but like everything it flies over your head.

That's incorrect you just missed everything, Everyone greed everything in RDF's just to sell for gold at a vendor, so I don't know why you would think that's a good idea.
You even state yourself that Greed rolling even shares the same priority as Disenchant rolling so if you want gear, how is that going to help you?
No matter if you change the prio on Greed over Disenchant, if your in a party with no enchanter, people will still greed items to sell to npc.
Your arguements are compleately unnecessary and unrealistic. Kthnxbye.

Anyone has the right to roll on any gear they want, regardless of the spec they play at the moment. I dont understand what gives you the right to say the oposite.
If someone wants to gear their 2nd spec, and they enter a dungeon as a tank or a healer, if they say: "MS dps", at the start, why should they be the one that have to leave and not the butthurt greedy dps? I guess they should que as dps, and do minimal dmg with that gear so they can roll? Please...

This confuses me also, I geared all my characters (who I can) as Tanks just to get that instant RDF queue, I didn't want to play Tank, I wanted to DPS, but I rather Tank some dungeons to get that DPS gear faster, is this concept unheard of?
Even before these "ninja rules" I stated in my RDF's just out of courtesy that I'm rolling for my DPS offspecc.
RDF's can't be compared to Raids because Raids have an actual leader, so if I want to roll on my offspecc who gives the other 4 people the "leader role" all of the sudden? just because some think so?
How about talking it over with other people and just show some godamn human decency.

[Skoobydoo]

Anyone has the right to roll on any gear they want, regardless of the spec they play at the moment. I dont understand what gives you the right to say the oposite.

Aaaaa... the Overall Blizzard policy about ninja looting, current Warmane policy about ninja looting, the overall players opinion about ninja looting, all this give me the right to say you cant roll for whatever you feel like.

I am very curious to see what give YOU the right to say people can roll for whatever they want?

Needle-Encrusted Scorpion, is just an overated trinket most people dont even know how it works, so u are using a bad example there. Regardless, 245 hit trinket from emblems and 200 arp trinket from ToC are perfect replacements, not to mention 239 commets trail from point shop. So again, ot the end of the world, and an item that will be replaced soon enough..

Someone can use the same logic for ninja looting your items in ICC 10 man, or TOGC saying : its not the end of the world you can get better gear from ICC 25 man anyway so its all good"... this is some nice logic you got there buddy. Gear upgrade are still upgrade regardless of where you get them and how fast will you replace them. You are not to decide for other people is something big deal or not.

Noone said wotlk dungeons are hard. People are simply bad overall. There wer number of times where i did 80% of the overall dmg in a 5m dungeon as a prot dps warrior, if that doesnt give me the right to roll on w/e i want, i dont know what does (same goes for any other player). But i guess a random DK with 264 spellpower item just to boost his gs, that does no dmg, has a right to call me a Ninja?

The threshold that give players the right to roll for items is to complete the dungeon. Doing more dps then others don't give you some extra privilege, especially when people are going to finish this dungeon w/o you anyway. If you so strong and want all the loot, then SOLO THE DUNGEON.

You are basing your argument on wrong reasons if you ask me. It shouldnt be about: "healer cant roll dps items cos he is a healer!", especially if he is busting his *** doing a great job healing, while the dps does nothing except yell NINJA! If you slack, you shouldnt roll on anything, if you are a good boi and do a good job, feel free to roll w/e u said u will at the start kf the dungeon.
.

Well first of all its not healer/tank rolling for DPS items, the rules should work the same regardless of which roll ninja loot. Just because you are healer or tank don't give you the right to ninja the dps role. It work the same way for DPS, even if they do 80% of the overall dmg done that don't give a dps the right to ninja loot healer/tank items. Or maybe you think healers and tanks have some special privilege over the DPS?

That's some nice logic you got there. As long as you say to yourself "i am good boy and did well" you can do whatever you want. So just to be clear, lets say new payer in blue/green gear go to hc dungeon, he obviously have very low DPS compare to other people and because of that "he is slacking" and because of that someone who wanna gear his 2nd spec, or just wanna sell the items for 10g have the right to ninja loot this gree/blue player items?

[Disktrasa]

Guess I'll have to post the In-game ninja policy.

"What qualifies as raid ninja?
- Master Looter taking items that were not reserved or giving them to players that did not win, unless it's 2nd highest roll when winner had no use for the item (rogue rolling on caster trinket).
- Changing looting rules during the raid, after it has started.
Example: You joined a raid that was being advertised as one with no reserved items and after first boss raid leader says that he reserves item x from last boss.
- Player exploiting game bug to bypass master loot. In such cases it is best if master looter would fill report that shows player leaving the raid and empty loot window.
- Player need rolling (group loot) on items which he cannot even use."


Where does it clearify that rolling items for offspecc is considered ninja?
Everyone understands that in a raid 10 or 25man you need to stick to 1 specc for your main rolls but you can still change to your offspecc as it was your main, So why shouldn't you be able to do the same in RDF's? because there's no leader? what if people dissagree in your raid group about some people changing mainspecc, then they have to leave themself, why shall the tables turn around so compleately in RDF's?
A lot of people spam rdf's to gear their offspecc's, I would even dare to say that almost everyone does, so why make it so complicated. This is probably why there's no solid rules on the matter, because there's loopholes and people different values on the matter.

[Sankyo]

Where does it clearify that rolling items for offspecc is considered ninja?

Here.

This page does not cover all the rules. If the GM's find an unfitting behavior, they will punish the player accordingly.

[Disktrasa]

That's pretty far fetched, and can be interpreted in many ways different, dependent on peoples values.

[Shred92]

That's pretty far fetched, and can be interpreted in many ways different, dependent on peoples values.

That + the rules changing constantly with no notice.

[OhieMitzen]

Where does it clearify that rolling items for offspecc is considered ninja?
Everyone understands that in a raid 10 or 25man you need to stick to 1 specc for your main rolls but you can still change to your offspecc as it was your main, So why shouldn't you be able to do the same in RDF's? because there's no leader? what if people dissagree in your raid group about some people changing mainspecc, then they have to leave themself, why shall the tables turn around so compleately in RDF's?
A lot of people spam rdf's to gear their offspecc's, I would even dare to say that almost everyone does, so why make it so complicated. This is probably why there's no solid rules on the matter, because there's loopholes and people different values on the matter.

In RDF there's no choice who you end up playing with. There's no leader who calls out rules, reserves or MS/OS changes. So there needs to be same rules for every RDF.
Make a full premade if you wish to change the rules for that group.

In raids, there's always a leader of the group. That leader has the power to kick people without a vote, they also make the loot rules. You either agree to their rules and stay, or disagree and leave (or disagree and stay, their rules are the rules, and they apply to you as well). You don't get deserter debuff for leaving a raid, allowing you to instantly find a new raid. You can freely choose raids you wish to join, can't say the same about RDF.

Life for those who gear their MS in RDF is already hard enough, why make it even worse. You can easily start your OS gearing with FoS PoS HoR runs, ToC 5 and ToC 10. You know, where you can actually say you roll for different spec.

I've never geared an OS with RDF, because it's very ****ty thing to do. It's slow AF, and unreliable source for loot. Not to mention it's against rules now.

[Gnimo]

@Skoobydoo
Again, I am NOT talking about people needing on items they will vendor, and never use.
You have the exact same right to roll on a DPS item as a healer/tank that is already geared his main spec to full, as a random DPS in that RDF.
Blizzards own in game rolling rules support this, letting any plater roll on a plate item, regardless of the spec.
Altho, as said, its a flawed system since you cant roll on Lether items as Fury Warrior for example, that are really great for your spec.

Regardless, why cant you roll on a dps item that you came in that dungeon for, if you dont need any tank/healer item from it?
"YOU SHOULD SUFFER AND WAIT FOR QUE LONGER IF U WANT TO ROLL DPS COS I SAID SO!"
Is this the main reason?
"I cant afford to roll vs 4-5 players instead of rolling vs 3 for an item I want, qq!"
Is this the main reason?
"You already geared your main spec, let me gear mine!"
If you have any other that is interesting, please share...
I dont see a problem when 4 or even 5 players press need on one item that ANY of those 5 players will use after they win it.

I never said get over the fact that you lost that trinket from FoS to a player that will vendor it, just said that people tend to blow that trinket out of proportions, since its not that great.
"Chance on melee or ranged critical strike to increase your armor penetration rating by 678 for 10 sec."

Again, for the 3rd time, I dont care about the loot from dungeons. This is NOT about me and my greed.
I get most of my items from SHOP and RAIDS with the GUILD I am in. But I guess you will fail to see this point once more.

The point is that, you are not special. You dont deserve items just cos u qued as DPS, while others dont deserve cos they didnt (or had the shorter que time). You have equal right as a DPS and a Tank/Healer (that geared his main spec to fullest) to roll on all the items u want that u stated at the start of the dungeon.
If someone does not like the fact that there will be 1 more player needing on an item they want, they should be the one leaving, if they are butthurt, not the player that wants to roll for a different spec, cos he doesnt need anything else from that place.
Also, ignoring the fact that some people put extra effort over others, and saying that doesnt matter, you sir are one awesome player I guess.

And AGAIN you are missing the point.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE THAT NEED ON EVERYTHING JUST TO VENDOR THE ITEM! those players are bad people.
I AM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT GEARED THEIR MAIN SPEC AND ARE TRYING TO GEAR THEIR OFFSPEC AND ACTUALLY WILL USE THOSE ITEMS, JUST AS THE DPS NEEDING THEM WILL.
I never said anything about things u said in your bottom reply, you are just playing dumb at this point.

On the point that others try to make that "there is no leader in the RDF", what does it change?
We all go to a raid or a dungeon to get the items we want. Getting in and stating that you roll another spec is perfectly fine.
Also, how is it OK for a DPS to change the MS and its not other way around?
Its not like you get there and take all the items. You still have to win it, and roll more than others you know?


@warmane
I also feel like Disktrasa and Shred92 are right.
Both that stated rules are mostly for raids, and that they change without notice.
"Player need rolling (group loot) on items which he cannot even use." lets people roll on items that they can use for offspec.
Before anyone trows rocks on me:
I am talking about people that ACTUALLY NEED AND WILL USE the items they got.
I am NOT talking about people that WILL SELL THE ITEMS TO VENDOR FOR 2GOLD as soon as they get out of the RDF.
I am talking about normal people that have no ill intent and actually dont have a desire to ruin the game experience of others.
I am talking about someone that does not need a single item for tank/heal spec, and is in that raid/dungeon just for the dps items.

I cant see the link Sankyo posted, so I might be missing something.
But regardless, I feel like rules should be talked about more, or atleast highlighted in game or somewhere where the majority will see, before they get a ban for 5 days cos they didnt know that as a plate that wants to gear offspec, they cant press NEED on RDF item that game itself already lets them do so.

I personally got banned long time ago, 2 months before the Ragnaros and Deathwing servers merged, in a 24/25 guild run, where that 1 non guild player didnt get a 271 LK sword (I gave the sword to person that was 2nd on roll), while already wielding Shadows Edge and getting carried trough whole raid, after i Loot Banned him cos of his bad performance on LK himself (he failed on PP and Sindra also)
Didnt matter, still got the 2 months ban (rip Death's Demise), cos i didnt state that at the start of the raid (u have to state that you give yourself the right to lootban someone if they perform badly before you can do that as a leader). 1 out of all the items from the raid didnt go to a snowflake, and rip (he did get couple of items before LK, so its not like we wer not giving him anything).
I am not complaining, its long in the past, but its just something to think about.

That is the first time I even found about the rules of these kind.
I know that its players fault for not being informed enough, but I dont think that "ninja" rules are out in the open and easy to find (might be that im just blind).

[angrylol]

The point is that, you are not special. You dont deserve items just cos u qued as DPS,

You are wrong. Whoever fills the role has priority to get loot for that role. Doesn't matter how good or bad the player is, it was his role and he is entitled to get first pick on items for his role. Your group can remove player who is not good enough. Doesn't matter how geared or skilled you are you can't just give yourself priority on items for another role. Talk and make a deal with people from other roles if they are ok with you rolling - and be at their mercy, because even then they can make report, skip some evidence and you go bye bye for 5 days, because I doubt that staff will look 2 hrs trough players offspec, trough all his items in bag, if he really gearing os or it's just there so he can roll items and de/vendor them.

Instead "Whoever fills the role has priority to get loot for that role." is so damn good and simple.

And I don't get it, what the hell is so hard to spend 1000 gold and craft 180 ilvl set, get some t9 parts and join RDF with spec THAT YOU CLAIM YOU WANT TO ACTUALLY PLAY, then NEEEEEEEED on all the gear you need? What you need to do is pull the thumb out, wash it and start to look at what you are doing instead of imposing some crap on others - this was for all the entitled creepers who think that other people should sacrifice their chances and time to gear up so you can get items for offspec that you may or might not even have, because, see, you are BIS ans extremely skilled so somehow you need 200ilvl stuff and que takes sooooo loooong.

[Skoobydoo]

You have the exact same right to roll on a DPS item as a healer/tank that is already geared his main spec to full, as a random DPS in that RDF.

This is so absurd i am not even sure how to respond. Just of curiosity do you think this also apply for Raids and if NOT please do explain why not? Both dungeons and raids are places where you go so you gear up, what's the difference between ninja looting in raid and ninja looting in dungeon? And please PLEASE do not say something like "dungeon gear don"t matter because you will replace it soon", because you can say the same thing for icc 10 man, or TOGC or Ulduar.

[Disktrasa]

This is so absurd i am not even sure how to respond .

Is it more absurd then implying that this?

I guess they should que as dps, and do minimal dmg with that gear so they can roll? Please...

If so I dont even know how to respond... (se? anyone can play that game)

see, you are BIS ans extremely skilled so somehow you need 200ilvl stuff and que takes sooooo loooong.

Can you stop overexaggerate everything all the time?
Nitpicking is what your doin.

What you need to do is pull the thumb out, wash it and start to look at what you are doing instead of imposing some crap on others

Couldn't cay it better myself.

[Massile]

Rules are meant as a deterrent, with the consequence (the ban) being the potential punishment.
The RDF Ninja Rule as it is right now, does an absolute worthless job as a rule. Like I said before, it remains a tiny footnote in a thread that defines Raid-Ninja, which bases around completely different circumstances, and in any other case it's being excused with the shallow "just because it's not in the rules doesn't mean you can't get banned for it" rule.

Rules are supposed to stop people from doing something bad, it should reduce the amount of arbitrary bans. Right now, it does the opposite. It encourages filing a report for any possible case. Doesn't matter how trivial the case, doesn't matter whether the one filing it even tried to resolve the issue personally with the suspect, doesn't matter if it gets denied. The outcome is either; The person gets banned |or| You wasted 2 minutes writing a ticket. Will the person who got banned learn anything? They'll learn that you can get people banned for any Loot inside an RDF. They certainly didn't receive any Insight though on how fair their own ban was.

This topic shouldn't be about "what is morally correct to do in an RDF; Is Needrolling OS ok, because Blizzard did it, is this and that ok?". All of these questions shouldn't even arise and is a result of a lackluster effort in implementing the rule properly and in detail.
At this point, I've played multiple times with the thought of just filing a Ban-Ticket whenever I can instead of whether I should. Even if it gets denied, all it takes is to land at a GM that understands the rule in a way that favors my side, and there we go. I ruined someone's day (5 days) with no effort.

Since (some) GMs don't consider the context of cases but just look at them in black and white, if I as a Rogue just send in a screenshot of a 6.4k Warrior rolling need on a Caster item, BoE or not, I'm fairly confident they'll just outright accept the request. Doesn't matter whether the Warrior actually said "I'll need on it so it doesn't get disenchanted, let's reroll it again." or that none of the casters in the group (if any even existed) cared.
It's baffling to me to see nothing being done about the transparency of this rule, despite dozens of new threads popping up on "Why did I get banned for 5 days?".

"If you don't want to get banned, just:"

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-Rulebook 2019