1. Rogue PvE Guide: How not to be basic in the Icecrown Citadel Raid by Darkwhisper

    Greetings fellow Warmane community, My name is Darkwhisper and today i will be giving you some advice for the Rogue class in the PvE scene how you can improve yourself and help out your fellow raid members and take your game to the next level. This guide is ment for any kind of rogue player, so doesn't matter if you're new or a veteran player since it's mostly filled with tips and tricks that can help in your icc advanture. I hope that you will find this guide useful and enjoyable.

    Note that this guide is not meant to be a DPS boost guide rather to learn a new thing or two you didn't know about the encounters and what you can do with your sneaky class. Also i will be more focused on the Icecrown Citadel raid and a few tips in general that you can use anywhere else.

    Important update (2022): Some thing's have changed since i wrote this guide, and thus some thing's don't work anymore on the Lordaeron realm like CC-ing Skeleton adds on Valithria Dreamwalker encounter for example as i mentioned in the guide itself. But you're free to read this guide for any purpose you may find useful. And (for now) i am keeping the guide as is without any changes now or in the future changes in plan because some of the tips are still useful on other servers. Thanks for reading

    About me: I have been playing for almost 2 years on the Lordaeron|Warmane server as a rogue main, and i have learned and tested alot of tricks that can be used in icc as a rogue and thats what i am here to share with you today.

    This guide is seperated into sections:

    1. Ideology What is my role in a raid as a rogue and what are the possibilities?
    -Brief explanation on how with this guide you will get a better understanding of the rogue class itself and how it can help you.

    2. The first step: Setting up the oven
    - Getting to know the utility abilities

    3. Turning on the oven: Trash clear 101
    - How to use the mentioned spells and a brief explanation with some trash mobs examples on how do they work and in what situations

    4.Turning up the heat: Bosses and mechanics tips and tricks
    Tips and tricks for ICC bosses and how the mentioned spells can benefit your playstyle and make the whole experience for you easier.

    5. Just to add a bit more spice to it
    - Some extra stuff

    6. T.H.E E.N.D

    You can find my armory here:
    http://armory.warmane.com/character/...daeron/summary


    Please note that although i will be giving tips and tricks there a few things to consider before reading the guide:

    - Most of the tips and tricks regarding bosses and their mechanics are working at this very moment on the Lordaeron realm, so if something works on my realm that doesn't mean it will work on the Icecrown realm since i don't own any characters there thus can't test it for myself. So always test it for yourself and see if it works.

    - This guide is made so you can create your own playstyle just like i did. I want to encourage thinking rather than do this do that kind of a way. Every class can be played differently and every player has his own unique style to their character, this doesn't serve as a "you have to do this" but rather to show new players a "how to" understand their rogue class a bit more what their class kit is all about and how they can use it to their advantage. Playing differently doesn't mean youre doing it wrong.

    - This is a helpful guide and i will be giving tips and tricks based on my knowledge and my experience, there is a chance that i missed something, that i don't know something and so on. If i did miss something or anything of the same nature you can always type it below and i will add update the guide itself but test it beforehand.

    - I play mostly Combat spec and a few advices will be spec specific but only a few and this guide is 90% universal to the rogue class since most of the spells mentioned are not talent specifics.

    - It is prefered that you are somewhat familiar with the Icecrown citadel raid for a better understanding

    - English is not my main language so i will do my best to write in a understandable grammar.

    So let's get into it.



    1.Ideology: What is my role in a raid as a rogue and what are the possibilities ?

    Everyone knows that rogue is one of the best melee dps classes out there and is welcomed in any core raid setup because of what he brings to the table and you just can't get enough of them.

    If i would to describe rogue as a class it would be something like this:

    A rogue is a melee dps class that deals huge amount of damage and is one of the key classes that goes well with any raid setup, brings alot of useful utility and is a big cheater.

    But why is rogue a cheater and why is that important for me as a player?

    Well rogues don't like to play fair and my advice is to play along. Every boss has mutiple unique mechanics that they constantly use to try and kill you and your raid members or just make it difficult for you and your raid to kill them. But why is rogue so special? Because rogue can dodge or straight up ignore alot of mechanics without even trying. You can dispell/dodge alot of debuff's/mechanics that the boss throws at you with a push of a button. You're in a bad spot and need to get away quickly? Press sprint and you're out of there in no time. Aggro issues? Just use vanish. A mob needs to be CC'ed? Let me introduce you to kidney shot/cheap shot and what not.

    All in all a rogue is a one compact damage dealer and has alot of utillity that other classes have maybe 1 if not max 2 spells that do the same-ish thing but a rogue has alot of them plus unique class spells that make other classes run for their money.



    2.The first step: Setting up the oven

    Now that you got an a idea of what a rogue is, before we get into how we can use abillities offered by our class lets talk about what they are.

    In my opinion every rogue player must have the following abilities ready on ther actions bars and binded at all times so you could use them in need at any given time. I will also write what is their function in a small sentince but i will go into detail a bit later.

    Utility abilities[Quick Overview]:

    - Kick (interrupt)
    - Dismantle ( Disarms the enemy target for 10s)
    - Evasion (+50% dodge chance and 25% reduced hit chance from ranged attacks, lasts 15s)
    - Feint (Threat reduction by a large amount and 50% reduced Area of damage delt to the rogue for 6s)
    - Gouge (A bit of damage + Incapacitating the target for 4s and can't be used behind the target)
    - Sprint (Increase 70% movment speed for 15s)
    - Blind (Disorients the target for 10s)
    - Cloak of shadows (Debuff removal)
    - Stealth (Makes you less visable to enemy targets)
    - Tricks of the trade (Gives a friendly player 15% damage increase and transfers all the threat you deal to the target to them for 6s)
    - Vanish (Reduces threat by huge amount and removes any movement impairing effects)
    - Garrote (Bleed effect that silences the enemy for 3s [Requires stealth])
    - Kidney shot (Stuns the enemy target for x amount of seconds depending on the number of combo points used)
    - Cheap shot (Stuns the target for 2s and gives 2 combo points [Requires stealth]) *does not share diminishing returns with other stuns* (Thank you Sprotess for pointing this out)

    These are the fundamental abilities that make your class so good, each of this abilities can be used in almost any situation (Bosses/Trash clear) and give you a advantage unlike any other class. They are so overpowered and you should have them at all times ready to be used and always use them when you get the chance.


    Abilities[Insight]:

    Now although these abilities are good most of them have a energy/combo point cost/cooldowns etc which prevent you from using them all at the same time so you will have to think when do you need to use them and why. But fear not i will go take some of them for minor examples such as trash clearing so you can understand the use of them and hopefully understand how powerfull they are. Also this is universal but i will talk about ICC trash clear as a example for the abilities but feel free to use these abilities on any other kind of mobs who are vulnerable to CC.


    3.Turning on the oven: Trash clear 101

    Trash clearing is a boring process that almost every raid has (except ToC). Most players don't like trash mobs beccause players can overaggro them and most of the time you will fight them in packs and a single tank can't focus on all of them at the same time, they are in your way of killing the bosses which is also boring and some times they have alot of annoying spells/abilities that try to kill your raid and so on. (General class tip: if you're not using AoE on the trash its always a good idea to attack the same target as the tank to avoid aggro issues).

    A rogue is a perfect class to make trash clear a pieace of cake not just by doing damage but also helping the raid with the annoying trash abilities and make it a lot easier, trust me when i say your raid will be thankfull in a long run for your big assistance.

    Now i will give a few specific trash examples and basic rogue 101 trash tips along with Ability usage.

    Abilities and their role:

    Tricks of the trade (aka ToT)[Crucial] – (Gives a friendly player 15% damage increase and transfers all the threat you deal to the target to them for 6s)

    You start of with this Ability every single time. The only thing you need to understand before doing anything with this Ability, is that you can always give ToT before/in combat BUT the thing to watch out for is that you need to activate it and so by using a Auto attack on the first mob you come by, when its activated you're free to go guns blazing at the mobs. This ability gives you a free tickets to not get punched in the face and youre helping both your Tanks and your fellow raid members ensuring that the trash mobs will go directly to the tank you choose to go for. But remember that it doesn't last for long so you need to make most of it.

    The common thing that i do is, use ToT on a tank, get close to the mobs use one Auto attack and then just start to pop Fan of knives and letting them go to the tank directly. Its simple, easy and you get first dibs on the DPS meter and nobody can stop you from doing so.

    It's also a good idea to let your tank start first then you just instantly follow him up so you can give your teammates a almost instant opportunity to spam AoE's without worry about overaggro.

    Note: Any damaging Ability can activate ToT once you used the ability on a friendly target, but i choose auto attacks because its the fastest way to active and you save energy for 2x fan of knives straight away.

    - Kick [Crucial] (Is not affected by Global cooldown)(interrupt)

    You should use this 100% of the time whenever its needed and can be used. It doesn't have a long cooldown(10s), it doesn't cost much (25 energy).

    Tip: You will need to understand that this spell is a crucial thing to use in any raid, it can be good on so many levels and so bad if you don't use it. Sacrifice your dps even if you have to but interrupt as much as you can, less casts means lass hassle and its a minor dps loss for such a great cause.
    Tip: Plague scientiets will often make your team members all goo-e and you don't want that, they are a perfect example why you should interrupt mobs. And if you need to save your Kick for something specific, remember that you need to save 25 energy for it too otherwise you will have no energy and the thing you planned to do just went to waste. Just save a bit (always have 65+ energy before using any Ability and you will always have those spare 25 for the kick) and you will always have kick ready no matter what.

    - Evasion [Good to know] (Does not give Global Cooldown)(+50% dodge chance and 25% reduced hit chance from ranged attacks, lasts 15s) (Doesnt cost anything to use it)

    This Ability can provide you with alot of things, but mainly its super usefull againts melee trash mobs, for example Valithria trash mobs tend to use a Bladestorm-like Warrior Ability and cleave sometimes, Evasion lets you be in a safe zone to not get killed and avoiding damage in that case.

    It is also is super usefull if a mob turns on you, rogues already have a high base dodge chance and when you use Evasion the mobs chances of hitting you with a melee are almost none. So this spell can buy you some time so you don't get instantly killed by the mob and let the tank get the aggro off of you.

    - Cloak of shadows [Good to know] (Debuff removal) (Doesnt cost anything to use it)

    Like Evasion this is also usefull in a same way but a bit diffrent then evasion.
    Unlike evasion this Ability protects you from caster mobs, some mobs like the Lady cultists trash cast shadow bolts and what not and this spells helps you in 2 ways. First is that if you get a debuff you can remove it almost 100% of the time on trash (CC's don't count like stuns, saps and so on, Dots etc can be removed), also you get a 90% chance to ignore the next spells in those few seconds after you've used it to basicly make you un-hitable with spells. So in this case if a Caster add turns on you this is your Ability to go.


    - Dismantle [Crucial] ( Disarms the enemy target for 10s)

    This Ability is usefull for melee mobs, for example a must do for the Tactician mob at the Blood quarter before Blood Prince Council and before Blood Queen-Lanathel. You can also use this on other mobs, but it's not needed in most cases, none mobs are that lethal even with their weapon on.

    Tip: A good thing you can do is co oporate with your team since other classes have a disarm Ability too to chain disarm the enemy mob.

    - Kidney shot (Stuns the enemy target for x amount of seconds depending on the number of combo points used)

    A stun Ability that doesn't require stealth and stuns the target from 2-6s depending on how many combo points you have on target before you use. Super usefull if you already used your kick to interrupt and lets say kick is on CD you can use this to stun the mob and interrupt its cast or any action it was going to do (starting to attack a healer because tanks haven't picked him up yet).


    Tips:
    Protecting your healers is your number one priority in trash clear, they got your back let them know you got theirs too.
    You don't always have to use max 5 point combo Kidney, sometimes 1 or 2 is enough to do the desired job.
    Tip: Stunning the target resets their aggro count too, so if someone over aggros you can use any kind of stun (you have plenty) and reset their aggro.

    - Cheap shot (Stuns the target for 2s and gives 2 combo points [Requires stealth])

    It is like Kidney shots baby brother but Requires stealth to be used and has a 2s stun duration. I only use cheap shot when i don't have kidney off CD and when i need to stun the target because of any reason (fatal Ability, interrupt a cast). Note that to use Cheap shot mid fight you need stealth and because of it you can use Vanish to be in stealth so you can use it.

    - Blind (Disorients the target for 10s)

    Small CC if you want to seperate a specific mob while you take on the others or interrupt a mobs action but it only has a 10s duration so its not that big but you can use it as you desire. And it has a solid 10yrd range so you don't have to be in melee in order to use it. (but it does cost 30 energy)

    - Gouge (A bit of damage + Incapacitating the target for 4s and can't be used behind the target)

    Now this is something i don't use too often and the least use Ability that i do, but it is there if its needed. Basicly a small cc to the enemy mob if its causing you too much trouble. But better to do other stun abilities because the first damaging hit will break the effect of this Ability and it does cost a bit of energy.

    - Garrote (Bleed effect that silences the enemy for 3s [Requires stealth])

    Good for assasination rogues if you want to have hunger for blood instantly since it gives a bleed effect and its a ok silence Ability, but you need to be behind the target and in stealth!

    - Sprint (Increase 70% movment speed for 15s)

    Quick escape tool if you need to change your position or just run faster, because why not?
    I get fester then all of you and i don't even have Engineering.

    Tip: Before gunship there is a dragon that you need to body pull, the thing i like to do is when we have the pack of mobs before the dragon below 50% i go to the spot to body pull the dragon down and just sprint back so you can take him down with the Buff provided by your allied mobs and you save some time.

    - Feint [Good to know](Threat reduction by a large amount and 50% reduced Area of damage delt to the rogue for 6s)

    As the description says its a threat reduction Ability and good to avoid AoE damage, most mobs don't use AoE damage but you can always use this if needed.

    - Stealth [Good to know](Does not give Global Cooldown)(Makes you less visable to enemy targets)

    To be stealthed is to get away from trouble, basicly you can just stealth and pass alot of mobs in general without getting detected (but watch for elite mobs since they can see you in some fair range, so don't just go like you own the place).

    Tip: While stealthed you can see traps which are used in ICC, you have about 4+ set of traps before Lord Marrowgar, 2 traps before PP entrance and when you kill Deathbringer saurfang, as soon as you enter the into the next room on the left side there is a Handle that you can click when stealthed to disable the Blue Gas in the whole room and free to pass. Your raid team will thank you.
    Hey guys! Traps are disabled.

    - Vanish (Reduces threat by huge amount and removes any movement impairing effects)

    This Ability can remove your aggro almost completly if a group of mobs is coming at you which makes it a perfect escape tool and you can use it to enter stealth which means you can use abillites like Cheap shot if needed.
    Pro tip: great for getting yourself out of the combat bug.
    No blue screen of death for me!

    Pro tip: Valkyr on the upper spire targeted you and wants to kill you and your team doesn't want to kill them yet for what ever reason? Just use vanish, its that simple. Not only do you escape but you also save money so becuase you don't need to use repair.

    General thing to watch out for is your energy/combo point usage, i can't precisely tell you how and when to save your energy/combo points because it differs from player to player, but keep your main focus on interrupts and stuns in the right moments at the right targets. But most of the time is just ToT and do dps is needed.

    Some minor tips and reminders:

    - Don't forget to clear traps (But don't use them if the Raid leader asked you not to because of extra BoE's. More trash = more chance at Epic BoE)

    -The spiderlike mob before Lady Deathwhisper youll need to watch on which tank you put ToT on becuase you don't want to give aggro to the opposite tank who has the debuff to heal the mob

    - Huntresses before Valithria will kill your raid team if not CC'ed, so many other people can CC them but i personaly like to sit on them, dps them and just wait with 1 combo point + to use kidney shot to stun them while they are using rapid fire. If i don't have energy/combo points for kidney i will use vanish and cheap shot.

    - Precious dog in the plague quarter can give your raid team a hard time with zombies that he spawns, you can ToT swap with a fellow rogue or hunter missdirection to give to the tank, lets say you do first wave he/she does second and you do third he does fourth and so on, to make it easier on the raid so someone doesnt get aggro and gets killed when they have 5% health on decimate.

    - Stunning Advisor Lich before BPC/BQL is also a good idea but watch out if he has the Hand of Protection spell on himself then he or some other mobs that he gives it too is immune. (Don't forget to disarm the tactician!)

    - As a melee on Valkyrs you need to wait for them to cast the Mirror effect spell before you can go melee on them



    Now that we examend all of the named abillities, for future reffrence i won't be repeating myself what does each Ability do rather just name them and what/when/how you need to use them on the boss fights since that is our next topic.



    4.Turning up the heat: Bosses and mechanics tips and tricks

    Now we come to the fun part, so far you have learned what some of the rogues utillity abillities are used for and how they are used. Now im gonna tell you how you can use those same abillities to avoid huge amounts of damage, cheat the boss mechanics and help out yourself by making your raiding experience easier and more enjoyable. Lets get started

    Some things to remember:

    - ALWAYS USE TRICKS OF THE TRADE ON START, even if you have the 2 set always use it so you don't forget it. This should be always on your mind before you engage a boss. And use it always on the fight, as soon as it is off cooldown you use it.

    - Don't forget to re-poison your weapons after 45mins.(Don't do this and your dps will drop by a huge amount)

    You can use Vanish (on most fights) to do a reset for your 3rd speed potion. So you have Prepot, pot after it expires you can do vanish to reset it for a 3rd one. (On some bosses you will have to save Vanish for a sepcific time so keep that in mind).
    Tip for hunter: You can also use your feing death Ability to reset your potion CD.

    Now the Boss encounters:

    Lord Marrowgar

    Evasion - While the boss uses his bonestorm, you can use Evasion to cut your healers some slack since you will dodge some of his attacks thus avoiding damage

    Feint – Good for reducing the same Bonestorm damage.



    Lady Deathwhisper

    Phase 1:

    - In phase one (while she has her mana bubble up) you can use ToT on one of your DPS teammates rather then the tank, you give your fellow raid member 15% damage increase and you can keep it like that until p2 starts. The reason is because she doesn't deal a huge amount of damage who ever shes attacking with her shadowbolt and extra dps is always welcome. I prefer to ToT a melee since you can't ToT a ranged from a big distance

    - You can also help out with the adds that are coming out in p1 if you want to, just Tricks the tank do a Auto attack and go nuts with fan of knives or with what ever abillty you perfer. But don't forget that the adds can cleave so always try to be at ther backs or faced away from their front

    - If mind control happens on a fellow melee raider, you can save yourself and other melees by using Dismantle(Disarm) on him, but you have to do it fast because if you keep hitting him he can die

    - Use Feint if the boss has Death and decay Ability beneath herself and you're standing on it for reduced AoE damage while you dps her

    Phase 2:

    - Use Kick to interrupt her Frostbolt cast [Crucial thing]

    - Before she goes into p2, you need to save your tricks for the first tank who is gonna take her, the aggro metter by now is busted and you need to help your tank out with it. (Same goes for hunters)

    - Use vanish, so you can restart your aggro on the boss when she enters phase 2

    - Keep ToT on the right tank, they will swap and they get a Threat reduction debuff so you need to help them out as much as you can

    - You can use Feint now constantly because of the Death and decay, Frostbolt volley and such. Lots of AoE the boss casts and you can save yourself with it.

    - Run from the ghosts always! Don't get hit by them

    - Sprint is usefull for running from spirits

    - And if you get slowed because of frostbolt dot you can always use Cloak of shadows to remove it



    Gunship Battle:

    - Its always better for rogues to stay on the ship rather then in cannon because of ToT. You are very usefull to keep the pack adds on the tank rather then shooting the enemy ship

    - Do not use ToT on the tank that stays on your ship as soon as the portal opens up, wait for atleast 2 adds to spawn then use tricks on your tank and start to aoe them for extra aggro. If you do it on the first mob you will get him and the 2nd one, but if you use it when the 2nd one spawns you can give 4+ mobs aggro to the tank

    - If you get aggro from adds you can use Vanish or Evasion to not get instantly killed.



    Deathbringer Saurfang[DBS](oh boy do i have a deal for you)

    This encounter is one of the easiest fights for melees (and one of my fav to dps as a rogue) because you contribute soo much and you can cheat this boss till death. But except for DPS-ing the boss, you have a higher role which puts you as a top class for that fight besides being on of the top dps on the fight. And you will see why i call rogues cheaters. (You will need to save your vanish here)

    Friendly reminder: On Lordaeron melees do not hit beasts, if we did we would get aggro and its a 100% secure wipe so keep that in mind

    - On DBS you can use Feint once more to reduce the AoE damage he deals.(its a good spell all rogues should use it when needed)

    - You can ToT a Hunter or any other RDPS when the beasts come, to help them kill it faster

    - You can stun the beasts but keep it as a last resort, if there is really a beasts who is causing big trouble don't hesitate to stun it

    Now the best part:
    You can dodge DBS Mark of the fallen champion by using Vanish. Now this can be a bit tricky since one thing needs to happen, he must pick you as a target for it. So with this i suggest you do the following:

    - Enable target of target in the interface section

    - Watch out when DBS gets around 90+ Blood power, because at 100 he casts Mark of the fallen champion

    Now how do you dodge it?
    So when he starts to channel: Mark of the fallen champion and if you're the target, you have about 1.5s to react WHILE he is casting to use Vanish and you will dodge it, he will cancel the cast and he can't use it again because he has no blood power left. Cough* i told you we are cheaters.

    Still got the mark? No problem, Feint becomes your best friend, although the effect of the Mark is to constant on you and deals Physical damage, it does count as a AoE spell, thus your Feint reduces AoE damage by 50%, so even if you get it you can still lower the damage it deals and remember the less damage it deals, DBS gets less blood power. Go rogues!



    Rotface

    - Sprint is your best friend here, you can always reposition and go back after a explosion

    - Cloak of shadows dispells you when you use it, so when you get the debuff you can just sprint to the ooze, dispell yourself and go back instantly

    - Feint is also good for the spit if you get yourself infront of the spit cast



    Festergut

    - You can use sprint with spores if you need to run outside to go to the ranged and come back in

    - When fester does Purgent blight (the AoE damage Ability) you can use you guess it... Feint to reduce the damage by 50%. Also counts the spore debuff tick damage it deals after it "blows up"



    Proffesor Purtricide

    - You should save Sprint so that if the Red ooze targets you, you can buy your raid team some more time to kill it

    - Feint is also good for slime pools and great to mitigate Green ooze damage on collision

    - If you get the choking gas debuff (The reduced hit one) you can use Cloak to remove it, but try to avoid it without this in mind, sometimes you get hit by it and its nice to have Cloak as a backup rather than purposely standing on it or run over it just to be like: Ha! Im smart!. But do as you please

    - If the Red ooze targets you, you can use Cloak of shadows on the red ooze if it gets close to you to not get hit and make it re-pick a target, but be careful with this. Its best that you kill it rather then it re picks a target, then you can compromise your melee members to get hit if it repicks and hes close attacking it and dus wipe the whole raid



    Combat tip: If the tank positions PP near the green ooze when it spawns, you can use Bladeflurry for extra damage (Talent specific Ability)



    Blood prince council

    - You can reduce the AoE hit by Shock vortex with feint, same goes for the fire debuff and damage from Taldaram

    - Sprint is your friend here if you get misspositioned or need to re position and also run from others when Prince Valanar uses shock vortex

    HC ONLY: You can use Cloak to remove Shadow Prison stacks



    Blood Queen Lanathel[BQL]

    - Feint can be used here on CD, you can use it all the time and not regret it, its a huge heal saver and your healers will be gratefull

    - If perfectly timed, you can avoid Shadow swarm from BQL, the way you do it is you get the debuff and it has 2s before it starts to take affect, so in that time you can use Cloak to dispell yourself from it and just keep DPS-ing the boss.

    Optional Combat tip: You can use Killing Spree when she starts to run to the center on her before she flys up to avoid the Fear, but this isn't so much of a good advice because you need to hold on KS for so long and have a bit of DPS loss, so its just best to use it on CD. But you have this option if you so desire.



    Valithria Dreamwalker

    Well here its situational, but you can treat this encounter as a wave of trash mobs. Which means they are vaunrable to CC(Stun, disorient, kick etc...).

    The main thing i like to do is mostly wait for the Blazing skeletons to appear and start to dmg them so i can time my CC when he uses Lay Waste, he has a tick before doing actual damage so i get ready on him with my combo points to use Kidney shot when he starts to cast it.(Don't do it before he casts it because if you stun him before he does it after the stun wears off he can cast it, so make sure you are waiting for that moment on the cast). And you can't kick him out of lay waste, you need to stun him or use the blind ability

    - If you find yourself 1v1 the Blazing skeleton, pop Evasion so he doesn't hit you

    - interrupt the Risen archmage frostbolt when you can and stunning them is also good

    - You can cloak the risen archmage frostbolt debuff

    - Kill surpressors



    Sindragosa

    Now on Sindra you have the best thing possible. You can remove Chill to the bone debuff, which (if you don't know) is a debuff that can stack mutlitple times on you and you get it by damaging the boss with your melee attacks. Now the way i do this is i wait to get 5+ stacks of Chill to the bone and i do as follows, if i get more than 7+ stacks (on normal) i will use Cloak of shadows, but there is a chance that even if you have 5/6 stacks that it will wear off, but you need to think like this. If i have 5/6 stacks and the duration left is 4s i will just turn around and wait for them to wear off, so you can save Cloak when it re-appears then stack a bit up again as soon as it gets 5+ and just straight up remove it. Pretty neat a? If it goes over 6+ just use cloak instantly and youre fine, do it regulary till you get your cloak again.

    - Sprint can be used to hide behind tombs and such or just running form blistering cold

    - Feint can be used here as well



    The Lich King

    For this fight there isn't alot of tips that i can give you. But i will share the few tips i do have.

    P1

    - As a rogue you can put anestetic poison and can remove enrage from shambleing horros, but i would'nt advise this since it is really a pain and having a hunter do it is 100% easier for the whole group

    - With Cloak of Shadows u can dispell Necrotic Plague from yourself, but bear in mind that it dispels it totally and should only be used if you already phased and Shambling horrors are dead, otherwise pass the plague normally to Shamblings

    P2

    - You can use Sprint to run back/away from members with Defile or to just hurry back ot the boss

    - Using stuns (kidney shot/cheap shot) on Valkyrs is crucial, you can set up a stun rotation with your fellow raiders, but know that you can help out too!

    - Tricks the tank on transition for Raging spirits(optimal to have a rotation with some other raider memeber for each spirits, one you do he does second you do third again and so on)

    - Using Tricks of the trade during Phase 2 while Val'kyrs already picked their target, on another DPS that is not picked up is a great way to kill Val'kyrs faster. (If Tank has enough aggro on the boss)

    And that would be all about the boss encounters!

    Combat tip: The talent Blade twisting has a 10% chance to daze the enemy target, this daze also works on slowing the valkyrs which is usefull to know.



    5.Just to add a bit more spice to it:

    Here are some usefull macros that you can use for your rogue:

    1.TRICKS OF TRADE MACRO:

    #showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
    /cast [target=Playername] Tricks of the Trade

    I use this x2 in my macro section so that i can put main tank and offtank, and i also have a third one if needed to boost someones dps which is a bit diffrent then this one.

    2.SECOND TOT MACRO WITH AURA CANCEL

    #showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
    /cast [target=Playername] Tricks of the Trade
    /cancelaura Tricks of the Trade

    Now the "trick" with this one is that its the same as the one before but with the /cancelaura. I use this one to give tricks to someone, wait it gets proced and cancel it so i don't transfer my aggro to my raid memvber. This is usefull if you want to give a player the 15% dmg increase but not the threat. (And you cancel the aura by pressing the same macro the 2nd time AFTER you activated it), also Affliction Warlocks should be a high priority for Tricks of the Trade damage increase cause they can keep their Corruption up for the whole fight, and they will be thankful for it.

    3.MOUSEOVER TOT

    /cast [target=mouseover] Tricks of the Trade

    You want just to mouse over and give someone ToT? Well there it is.

    Auto attack on demand

    #showtooltip Sinister Strike
    /startattack
    /cast Sinister Strike

    Now i use this so my character starts instantly attacking, rather then wait for me to actually get in combat. And i gave here Sinister strike as a example, you can change it to Mutilate or whatever you desire for. (Its like a right click on a enemy target you just need to press it)

    - I also keep a keybind on Stealth icon, so when i use vanish i can just pressit and exit stealth, much better then to wait to autoattack or use some ability.


    6.T.H.E E.N.D

    Keep in mind that all of this can be used elsewhere in other raids, World PvE and such. Even today on the newer expansions some of the abillities are still the same and do the same thing for us rogues. I hope that you learned something new about your rogue class and that this will serve you well as it did for me. I made this guide so that people can learn a thing or two, make your playstiyle easier and help their fellow raid team out. This isn't a free ticket on how to become a pro, but in my opinion these tips and tricks will get started right away from being a ordinary rogue to a very classy one. It also takes some practice, don't let yourself down if you can't do all of this immediately, but you can practice it and if you understand what i wrote, then in no time you will get the hang of it im certain of it. As i also mentioned i am open for something i don't know or didn't mention here, also open for suggestions and questions. Enjoy my first guide i will catch you all around. Peace
    Edited: March 11, 2022 Reason: Added some minor new info, fixed spelling and some format

  2. Hey man, great work on the guide. I myself like to consider myself a "veteran" but it's great to still read guides and see that there are others out there who value the importance of a well played rogue! Awesome job on the guide though.

    One tiny thing I'd add personally (as you mentioned everyone's got their own play styles), is on heroic GS I like to stack my CP's on an ad that's on our ship and then mid jump to dps the sorceress on the opposing ship, pop SnD as you're jumping to save that little bit of burst down time. Again... super min max there since GS is a joke of a fight for the most part.

    Anyway, great guide for the community, thanks again for taking the time to write this up.
    Edited: August 17, 2019

  3. Hey man, great work on the guide. I myself like to consider myself a "veteran" but it's great to still read guides and see that there are others out there who value the importance of a well played rogue! Awesome job on the guide though.

    One tiny thing I'd add personally (as you mentioned everyone's got their own play styles), is on heroic GS I like to stack my CP's on an ad that's on our ship and then mid jump to dps the sorceress on the opposing ship, pop SnD as you're jumping to save that little bit of burst down time. Again... super min max there since GS is a joke of a fight for the most part.

    Anyway, great guide for the community, thanks again for taking the time to write this up.
    Thank you my fellow colleague and thank you for your kind words, i'm really glad that you enjoyed my guide.

    And about SnD(Slice and Dice), yeah i didn't mention SnD in the guide so thanks for the tip and your advice is indeed a min/max which is also useful. But what i would also like to do is add that if any rogue finds himself in a *wipe* situation, the Adds/Boss still have the unused combo points, so if you want to take it a step further, you can *pre* combo point the boss before your raid wipes but keep in mind that you will have to Vanish and not die for this to work in the process, and when you come back you have a couple combo points to use on pull before you even touch the boss(depending on how much you had before you vanished), which saves you alot of energy/time and in my opinion having a instant SnD when you start the fight as combat rogue is even more so broken to begin with.

    Again thank you so much for pointing this out Bumchaka, this is what i love to see from my fellow rogues. Peace!
    Edited: August 17, 2019 Reason: Forgot to put in Vanish

  4. You missed many of the pro spots. And you haven't explained how to be a good rogue on most important fight. When to use offensive CDS, how to survive spirits, how to survive cutters on Halion with cos, etc..

    One important thing on Lady Dw which I noticed many times is combat rogues killing MC people before they get cycloned with Blade flurry.

  5. You missed many of the pro spots. And you haven't explained how to be a good rogue on most important fight. When to use offensive CDS, how to survive spirits, how to survive cutters on Halion with cos, etc..

    One important thing on Lady Dw which I noticed many times is combat rogues killing MC people before they get cycloned with Blade flurry.
    I appreciate the criticism.

    But as i explained and mentioned above, this is not a DPS guide. If you want to see Offensive CD usage go to other guides and there are plenty on how to properly use them.

    You haven't specified which most important fight and why.

    As i said i will be sticking to the Icecrown Citadel raid, so i didn't mention any other raid.

    For the spirits is a bit of a tricky thing, if i where to guess pref would use Cloak of shadows since if i'm not mistaking they do Shadow-frost damage so you can resist it, but the thing is this is also bad since they explode, you're a melee and if they hit you they will hit every other melee so you will kill all your other raiders which is bad. One thing also to note here on Lordareon there is currently a bug that makes 3 spirits chase one guy, so if you're targeted you can maybe survive with cloak but other's won't, not to mention their damage here is over the top insane so its best to avoid them and do the tactic properly.

    As for the MC and Bladeflurry if you're as any kind of melee standing close to others you risk killing them or you getting killed. So that would be a position thing.

    And i also explained above that i don't know everything. So if you want to add anything more feel free to add.
    Edited: August 23, 2019 Reason: Double quote

  6. LOD proper way to DPS the boss, survive, etc.

    Back when I was an active player, cloak of shadows was removing necrotic completely from the player. It was bugged and it was important not to cos necrotics.
    As rogue you can do insane AOE dmg on Valkyrs by proper timing fok and offensive cds.

  7. I think you're hyper criticizing this mans guide, he stated that he may leave some things out or appreciates any additional info provided by the community.

    Also keep in mind that he is playing on Lordaeron, a rogue is gonna almost insta die trying to soak spirits on Lordaeron. My rogue on Icecrown is 6.3k gs and I can tank about 4-5 spirits before dropping dead. On Lordaeron my 6.1k rogue could barely take 2 hits before dropping over dead without diverting too much healing from tanks/raid. It's just not worth it unless there's some emergency situation to save the party. On Icecrown, yes it might be viable to help soak if you notice your soaker is about to go down or miss a couple spirits. With that being said the skill you want to use is Feint, since they explode it's AoE and Feint will reduce it by 50%. If I'm correct I don't recall Cloak of Shadows making a difference but I could be wrong on that, Feint for sure will help mitigate and that I have done before as I stated on IC.

  8. I appreciate the idea of the thread and trying to educate rogues on how not to tunnel and sinister+evisc spam, but there's quite a few mistakes in your thread. I'll cover the first ones that pop into my mind after a quick read:

    1. Utility abilities you mentioned TotT. You could argue that it's a utility spell but once you get your 2 set it becomes part of your rotation, so you can't really classify it as utility. Would have loved to see Expose Armor there, since there's a lot of situations where warriors can't sunder or your expose is just significantly better (raging spirits, start of sindragosa's last phase, quick 1 cp expose on an ooze on PP and plenty other situations). If you care about your dps you'll be using this spell a lot, especially with the skill level of warriors on this server (especially pugs).
    I also don't see the use of Garrote. It's a bad spell, no matter how you look at it. Everything that garrote does is done better by cheap shot (stun > silence) with the added bonus of not actually causing extra damage to your raid members on mind controls. Same for adds, I'd much rather take a stun over a silence. Also you will never need it to proc your hunger for blood, since there's NEVER gonna be a raid where you don't have a hunter, a warrior a cat or a bear.

    2. "(always have 65+ energy before using any Ability and you will always have those spare 25 for the kick)" --> Super bad piece of advice. Keeping your energy that high constantly means you're gonna have to clip your rupture and snd A LOT because you won't be able to dump and wait for them to tick for another extra couple of seconds before refreshing. Also having 65+ energy all the time will make you lose a huge amount of energy from different RNG factors like Combat Potency on a dbw speed proc/haste potion/hero, rapture from a disc priest shield, revitalize from a druid. Those abilities will get you from 65 to 100 in less than a global meaning on the long run you'll lose a lot of energy.

    3. Feint is way better than Vanish when it comes to threat reduction. Less cooldown, better threat reduction, basically the same dps loss (one of them costs 20 energy and a global, the other one makes you lose at least 1 white swing even if macro'd with /startattack). If you do your TotT properly you shouldn't have threat issues, even if trading with a fellow rogue. In the case you do have threat issues because of slacking hunters/bad tanks, I'd suggest using feint over vanish.

    4.Vanish does not remove the stacks from Gas Cloud (red ooze), only Cloak of Shadows removes them. If you get targeted by the red ooze and you try vanishing it before it hits, you're gonna have a very bad time. Keep this in mind.

    5. On sindragosa, you mentioned "feint can be used here as well". Being a tips and tricks guide, you should mention that cloaking the stacks right before blistering + using feint makes you ignore the mechanic (just how dk's do it with AMS). Even on 25hc, blistering with feint up deals around 50% of your hp in damage, basically allowing you to ignore the mechanic and tunnel the boss if there is no healing issues.

    6."With Cloak of Shadows u can dispell Necrotic Plague from yourself (but keep in mind that it still jumps to a another target so you have to do it properly either way" --> Cloak of Shadows removes Necrotic completely, meaning it won't jump to the shambling. Use cloak on necrotic only if it's the last one before the phase transition and the tank doesn't need it or if you're too close to the shambling after it dies during the transition to save your raid the pain of dispelling it 10 times before it disappears.

    7. Rogues shouldn't be in charge of stunning. Having a rogue build combo points to use kidney is a HUGE dps loss and should only be a backup solution if one of the stuns gets grabbed.
    Also being a "tips and tricks" guide, would have loved to see you mention the fact that cheap shot does not share diminishing returns with other stuns. So even after a HoJ and two holy wraiths you can still throw a full duration cheap shot if necessary. Keep your Vanish solely for this.

    8. Would have been nice to talk a bit more about TotT since I feel this is where having a good rogue shines. 70-80% of your TotT's won't actually go to the tank. Having a glyphed tott being cast on you the whole duration of a fight is almost the equivalent of having hysteria in terms of dps increase, so most rogues either trade the totts or do them on a mage/warrior. Quick example of proper tott usage is saving it after the transition is over on LK and doing it on warriors only when valkyrs spawn. Having tott ready for every valk wave is gonna benefit the raid a lot.


    General idea of the thread is nice, but it feels like you haven't done your homework properly. As I mentioned earlier, I appreciate that you made this thread but there's a lot of wrong information or incomplete information. Feels like your average "I wanna help but I'm not experienced enough to help" type of thread.

  9. 1. Utility abilities you mentioned TotT. You could argue that it's a utility spell but once you get your 2 set it becomes part of your rotation, so you can't really classify it as utility. Would have loved to see Expose Armor there, since there's a lot of situations where warriors can't sunder or your expose is just significantly better (raging spirits, start of sindragosa's last phase, quick 1 cp expose on an ooze on PP and plenty other situations). If you care about your dps you'll be using this spell a lot, especially with the skill level of warriors on this server (especially pugs).
    - ToT should be always used regardless of 2set or not, it is true that it becomes a part of your rotation, but it's the best threat ability in the game and it lasts the longest (especially with the Glyph), And it is a utility spell because it favors the other player. So you're helping out more rather then the 25 energy.

    - As for expose armor, well i do agree and i will admit i did miss out to mention it. But the reason why its not as important because ok you wanna do the right thing and help out with expose while warriors stack up Sunder, but the problem is that as soon as they hit one sunder, Expose gets removed from the Enemy instantly. Doesn't matter if its 1 stack of sunder or 5, they just override your expose and you pretty much wasted both your energy and combo points. But yeah if you can help out anyway you can i can personally appreciate that.


    I also don't see the use of Garrote. It's a bad spell, no matter how you look at it. Everything that garrote does is done better by cheap shot (stun > silence) with the added bonus of not actually causing extra damage to your raid members on mind controls. Same for adds, I'd much rather take a stun over a silence. Also you will never need it to proc your hunger for blood, since there's NEVER gonna be a raid where you don't have a hunter, a warrior a cat or a bear.
    - Garrote is not the first option and i also agree that a stun is better than silence, but its there if needed. Because Kidney,Cheap shot, Blind, Vanish, Kick can be on CD and if you need something to silence there you have it. As for the Raid Comp you never know, i certanly had a situation where i didn't have neither of those in my raid. (Mostly in 10man's)

    2. "(always have 65+ energy before using any Ability and you will always have those spare 25 for the kick)" --> Super bad piece of advice. Keeping your energy that high constantly means you're gonna have to clip your rupture and snd A LOT because you won't be able to dump and wait for them to tick for another extra couple of seconds before refreshing. Also having 65+ energy all the time will make you lose a huge amount of energy from different RNG factors like Combat Potency on a dbw speed proc/haste potion/hero, rapture from a disc priest shield, revitalize from a druid. Those abilities will get you from 65 to 100 in less than a global meaning on the long run you'll lose a lot of energy.
    - Well for trash clearing i don't know if you're gonna use Bloodlust/Hero, not everyone has DBW (yet) and all those other factors are RNG by itself. But if you think that 65+ is alot and risky, its not. SImply because in some cases you need to do kick no matter what, and the reason is:
    - (For example) Sinister Strike costs 40 energy, its easy to press it but very hard to get 25 energy instantly, sometimes even with good gear you aren't just lucky enough and risking to not interrupt a crucial cast, and that is more punishing then even sacrificing 5-10 energy.

    - As i said sometimes you have to have priorities, at all costs interrupt rather then to chase the top chart on the meter, because you can choose between to not interrupt and interrupt and i (at least) am always up to sacrifice my DPS to save the raid rather then cause a wipe.

    3. Feint is way better than Vanish when it comes to threat reduction. Less cooldown, better threat reduction, basically the same dps loss (one of them costs 20 energy and a global, the other one makes you lose at least 1 white swing even if macro'd with /startattack). If you do your TotT properly you shouldn't have threat issues, even if trading with a fellow rogue. In the case you do have threat issues because of slacking hunters/bad tanks, I'd suggest using feint over vanish.
    - It is a better threat reduction spell i do agree, i mentioned it because it can instantly save you while Feint cannot, it doesn't have a cost to it and you can avoid a lethal hit from the boss/mob. It is not meant (not did i say it was) to be a part of some rotation or that it's Vanish>Feint, its a escape tool which i did specify in the guide.


    4.Vanish does not remove the stacks from Gas Cloud (red ooze), only Cloak of Shadows removes them. If you get targeted by the red ooze and you try vanishing it before it hits, you're gonna have a very bad time. Keep this in mind.
    - Now it is something that it is stuck in my memory that i did vanish and it did change target. The next time i get the chance ill re-do it. I could be wrong on this one so if it doesn't work ill edit the guide as promised. But yeah Cloak works on the red ooze 100%


    5. On sindragosa, you mentioned "feint can be used here as well". Being a tips and tricks guide, you should mention that cloaking the stacks right before blistering + using feint makes you ignore the mechanic (just how dk's do it with AMS). Even on 25hc, blistering with feint up deals around 50% of your hp in damage, basically allowing you to ignore the mechanic and tunnel the boss if there is no healing issues.
    - This can be a bit tricky, if you would to do that here on this realm you would prob die. Now in the guide i stated that i am not from the Icecrown realm, and now i know that stuff is done diffrently there, easyest example would be Melee cleaving Beasts on DBS, here if you would to do that not only would DBS generate alot of Blood power, but also the beasts hit hard and could kill you in 2s. Regardless of difficulty.

    - Besides that i would like to note that althought this is not a bad tip, but using Cloak right before blistering to remove Chill of the bone stacks and use feint to ignore the blistering cold is not as rewarding. The problem is that on Lordareon you would die 100% no question about it. And i see this as a DPS loss, i would rather remove 8+ stacks of Chill of the bone and keep DPS-ing the boss, rather than attack/remove stacks/attack/remove stacks/Cloak pre blistering while by respecting the mechanic you will lose the stacks either way. Just my opinion


    6."With Cloak of Shadows u can dispell Necrotic Plague from yourself (but keep in mind that it still jumps to a another target so you have to do it properly either way" --> Cloak of Shadows removes Necrotic completely, meaning it won't jump to the shambling. Use cloak on necrotic only if it's the last one before the phase transition and the tank doesn't need it or if you're too close to the shambling after it dies during the transition to save your raid the pain of dispelling it 10 times before it disappears.
    - I'l double check this too but i did it so many times and it worked out fine, meaning that the shamblings got the plague. If i didn't do it that means no dead Shamblings which means low chance of survival on transition phase.

    7. Rogues shouldn't be in charge of stunning. Having a rogue build combo points to use kidney is a HUGE dps loss and should only be a backup solution if one of the stuns gets grabbed.
    Also being a "tips and tricks" guide, would have loved to see you mention the fact that cheap shot does not share diminishing returns with other stuns. So even after a HoJ and two holy wraiths you can still throw a full duration cheap shot if necessary. Keep your Vanish solely for this.
    - Well there are other classes who can stun, but since you can only most of the time stun trash, in my opinion its everybodies job to protect the raid and keep it safe. And rogue has so much stuns they became hated for it in PvP and Stun lock is a rogue thing and the same can be used in PvE. Not saying that also others shouldn't do stuns, not saying that if the raid there is a *deal* who will stun then fine, but if you think it's not your job, i will tell you that you are wrong.

    - Yeah i forgot to mention the diminishing return on Cheap shot. Ill add it right now.

    8. Would have been nice to talk a bit more about TotT since I feel this is where having a good rogue shines. 70-80% of your TotT's won't actually go to the tank. Having a glyphed tott being cast on you the whole duration of a fight is almost the equivalent of having hysteria in terms of dps increase, so most rogues either trade the totts or do them on a mage/warrior. Quick example of proper tott usage is saving it after the transition is over on LK and doing it on warriors only when valkyrs spawn. Having tott ready for every valk wave is gonna benefit the raid a lot.
    - Well you're talking mostly about guild-raiding environment and there are things done differently and there is not a precise way to generalize it. Some RL wants rogue's to do everything, some of them don't. Some want you to ToT the warlocks, some want you to ToT the tank. It all depends but you can never go wrong especially in a pug to ToT the tanks. And you also need to understand clearly what you're doing. Maybe you know how to give ToT properly to your fellow DPS player without him having overaggro but if you give a new player this advice, he will kill that player especially if in combat spec. So better the Tank is always the safest place.

    - If you're running Rupture build, there is a low chance that rogues will use ToT glyph since Rupture is a must. On the Evi build it is better to take ToT than 10% Crit Evi.


    General idea of the thread is nice, but it feels like you haven't done your homework properly. As I mentioned earlier, I appreciate that you made this thread but there's a lot of wrong information or incomplete information. Feels like your average "I wanna help but I'm not experienced enough to help" type of thread.
    - We all make mistakes, i never said i was 100% right. But for some reason people see this as a DPS guide while i clearly stated it is not. And the point is to as you said not make players tunnel vision into SS/Evi rotation and that's the whole point because we are aware that a rogue is so much more than just 1,1,2.

    - Well not experienced enough as you said is from the personal view. Because you can see my mistakes i can see yours, and we both (same with everyone else) play our character differently. And as i said i didn't cover everything there is to know, but i did a good majority of it and explained in the beast ways i can how new rogues can use or understand their class better and that's good enough for me because that's the point of this guide.

    - I really appreciate the good words and the criticism. I hope you appreciate mine.

    Peace!
    Edited: August 24, 2019

  10. One other thing you didnt mention is that rogue can vanish on green ooze on PP. Red oozes are not problem for rogues, since engi is a must prof and you have sprint. CoS does remufe debuf and you cant really **** up red oooze. But what is really useful is ability to vanish the green ooze, since you save your teammates from impact dmg and give them time to continue dpsing.

    As for glyph discusion, If you want to do real good low rupture cycle rupture glyph is required. Gain from few sec more doesnt do the job, especially when tot is not shared properly.

    You could make whole tutorial on how to use tot properly for maximum dmg output. I dont have will to do so, but you could. It is much more than energy refiller, it it must be timed with trinket procs etc...


    " As for expose armor, well i do agree and i will admit i did miss out to mention it. But the reason why its not as important because ok you wanna do the right thing and help out with expose while warriors stack up Sunder, but the problem is that as soon as they hit one sunder, Expose gets removed from the Enemy instantly. Doesn't matter if its 1 stack of sunder or 5, they just override your expose and you pretty much wasted both your energy and combo points. But yeah if you can help out anyway you can i can personally appreciate that."

    The thing with expose is that it is really important on some fights, and most notable is Sindragosa last phase on push tactic. You dont want your mostly whoring warriors who never do proper sunders waste 10 seconds of bloodlust for stacking it. It is much more useful that rogues instantly applies it. It is mostly done on Shamblings but not so important there.
    Edited: August 24, 2019 Reason: blablablal

  11. As for glyph discusion, If you want to do real good low rupture cycle rupture glyph is required. Gain from few sec more doesnt do the job, especially when tot is not shared properly.


    Playing Glyph of TotT over Rupture/Eviscerate is a dps increase, no matter your spec or itemization, given that both you and the other rogue have more than 2 brain cells.
    Playing Glyph of FoK on LoD/Ruby is a dps increase over Rupture/Evisc.

    Both glyph of Rupture and Eviscerate are 2 really bad glyphs. Only reason you'd go for them is by default when joining a pug. If you're not sure if the other rogue is decent or if you're on any other boss that doesn't require a lot of AoE, sure, fetch them. But in a proper raid you wouldn't want to take these glyphs.
    Your eviscerate damage (on a 2set rogue spec'ed into eviscerate) should be around 8-9%. Your rupture on a 2set rogue is usually around 5.5-6% and 3%-4% evisc. 4set is a bit more RNG based, but it still shouldn't go over 11-12% no matter how lucky you are.

    So you've got 4 extra seconds to your 16 second ruptures. Roughly 25% damage increase on an ability that's 6% of your total damage.
    Same story for eviscerate, but even worse. You have 10% extra crit chance (NOTE: crit chance, not increased damage) on an ability that's under 10% of your total damage.

    Both of these scenarios are, give or take, 1% dps increase. Which might sound good, but is utter garbage. For everybody to understand, you're wasting that glyph slot to do 20.2k instead of 20k on a fight like dbs.
    On the other hand, you can have 15% extra damage on your cooldowns (AR+Flurry, your opening KS is gonna be buffed even without having tott glyphed) while also having procs from Ashen Ring, STS, DBW, Double berserk, heroism, haste pot and tailoring enchant if you have tailoring. If done properly, it will also sink with the next set of procs without having to actually track anything (igcd of sts is 45, so your 4th tott is gonna hit your 2cd sts proc and I'm way too lazy think which tott is gonna hit your 2cd dbw proc so you'll have to take my word that it will).

    TL;DR: 3rd glyph slot is bad, tott is by far the best option. Take Rupture/Evisc glyph only if you pug or if the second rogue isn't the brightest tool in the shed.

  12. It's nice to see glyph of TotT rightly recognized as one of the more powerful DPS glyphs. This sentiment wasn't very popular back when I played WotLK much more actively.

    I should point out though that the Threat reduction from Feint is actually very insignificant. It's something like 1000 or so threat. It's always this same static amount. Don't ever use Feint for threat reduction - either use TotT, or just Vanish.

  13. Playing Glyph of TotT over Rupture/Eviscerate is a dps increase, no matter your spec or itemization, given that both you and the other rogue have more than 2 brain cells.
    Playing Glyph of FoK on LoD/Ruby is a dps increase over Rupture/Evisc.

    Both glyph of Rupture and Eviscerate are 2 really bad glyphs. Only reason you'd go for them is by default when joining a pug. If you're not sure if the other rogue is decent or if you're on any other boss that doesn't require a lot of AoE, sure, fetch them. But in a proper raid you wouldn't want to take these glyphs.
    Your eviscerate damage (on a 2set rogue spec'ed into eviscerate) should be around 8-9%. Your rupture on a 2set rogue is usually around 5.5-6% and 3%-4% evisc. 4set is a bit more RNG based, but it still shouldn't go over 11-12% no matter how lucky you are.

    So you've got 4 extra seconds to your 16 second ruptures. Roughly 25% damage increase on an ability that's 6% of your total damage.
    Same story for eviscerate, but even worse. You have 10% extra crit chance (NOTE: crit chance, not increased damage) on an ability that's under 10% of your total damage.

    Both of these scenarios are, give or take, 1% dps increase. Which might sound good, but is utter garbage. For everybody to understand, you're wasting that glyph slot to do 20.2k instead of 20k on a fight like dbs.
    On the other hand, you can have 15% extra damage on your cooldowns (AR+Flurry, your opening KS is gonna be buffed even without having tott glyphed) while also having procs from Ashen Ring, STS, DBW, Double berserk, heroism, haste pot and tailoring enchant if you have tailoring. If done properly, it will also sink with the next set of procs without having to actually track anything (igcd of sts is 45, so your 4th tott is gonna hit your 2cd sts proc and I'm way too lazy think which tott is gonna hit your 2cd dbw proc so you'll have to take my word that it will).

    TL;DR: 3rd glyph slot is bad, tott is by far the best option. Take Rupture/Evisc glyph only if you pug or if the second rogue isn't the brightest tool in the shed.
    I did lots of testing on this in end game guilds with some good rogues, but as I stated before, the thing with TOT is using it properly as CD, with addons as TMW or so, but the dependance on the other rogue is biggest issue with it. For instance: you know when other rogues TOT is comming off cd, and you decide to save your KS 5,6 secs for it, but he decides its not good for his energy to use TOT so he waits for smthing, and that intertemporal problem creates confusion.

    To be all honest, I would never play rogue and not whore, Im complete DPS whore with each and every class and It is the way I play, but, glyph of TOT is really good for your team. It can be extremely beneficial on DBS for example if you properly TOT balance dudu, they can do like 600k on beasts alone, nobody else needs to touch them. One tott on start can be nice for your affliction warlock to use it in his corruption rolling, on LOD you can tott class that does hard aoe dmg on Valks, there are many possiblities and glyph of ToT wins there, at least for the group.

    But for low rupture cycle as such, for max dps, with 2 set piece which is better in my experience, you need those few extra seconds, you really need them to put one extra EVI with 3 cp for example.

    On fights like LOD or Halion you remove it with FOK but that is other discussion. So it is all situational and dependant on specific boss.

    So in conclusion, as a rule of a thumb absolutely use Glyph of TOTT, you can't make a mistake. It will be beneficial in situations when other rogue knows how to trade.

    But in minmax dps situation, my experience taken other things in an account, rupture glyph wins, ceteris paribus for rng.
    Edited: August 25, 2019

  14. tot glyph is the best, whore dps no good. rogur is very good for tot tanks to get agro. that is very important for tanks. also can vanish on sidragoza tombing phase so no tombs very good for team. best glyph is killing spree and tot. most dmg when 2 weapon with instant poison do kiling spree

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