Mate, if that were the case everyone would be running around with arp capped unholy. It's been tested in sims and tested on realm, I have spent hundreds of thousands of gold trying things out, so have countless others. You forget that big portion of DPS don't benefit from ARP, but everything benefits from STR, everything.
400 str might not seem a great deal, but then think about it... +17% from talents and buffs, thats 468, 10% atk power aura, ---- 1'000 attack power. That's almost permanent trinket proc sacrificed just to boost 65% of your damaging abilities? And your AoE potential is at least 20% weaker! And if I want some super single target DPS, there is some dude uh arp and other dude fury war, which one I will invite, please guess.
-
Forum Veteran
-
Member
@angrylol
you're not considering the fact that the unholy dk will provide the unholy dk buff, and the fury warrior will provide the fury warrior buff. Please stop replying to this thread. You're close minded and not understanding this is entirely to maximize single target dps for unholy dk. Aoe dps is an after thought when looking at single target fights and an unholy dk can always have his aoe 4 piece tier 9 build ready to go if there's a significance on aoe dps such as rs 25 heroic.
Also you haven't tested this build nor considered this build so please don't dismiss this build. First test it, show me it does 6k dps and is trash, then continue posting that it doesn't work.
Arpen affects
Necrosis
Auto-attacks
Scourge strikes
blood strikes
blood-caked strikes
Shadowmourne procs
Arpen does not affect
Blood Disease
Frost disease
Gargoyle
Ghoul
Yes the ghouls damage is significant but will not
all 4 of those will NOT be significant damage losses for single target dps considering the 310-20 (elixir bonus) base strength (multiplied by 13% not 17% considering endless winter won't be taken with these talents because of subversion)
So it will be 290*1.13 = 328 strength less in this build which will reduce the dps of ghoul, gargoyle and both diseases only very slightly, in favour of increasing the damage of scourge strike, auto attacks, etc and all other damage by a SIGNIFICANT amount.
Also this build will cut out every usage of icy touch and plague strike completely so your armorpen will affect the majority of all the damage this build uses.
My best guess is gargoyle, ghoul, and both diseases will do maybe 20% of your overall dps, maybe 25% so the arpen will affect 75-80% of your overall dps.
-
Member
Also haste is useless as it only scales with your gargoyle, which does 120 + 0.4(attack power) damage with haste scaling exactly the same as the DK's speed. Gargoyle is the only spell that scales with haste. Gargoyle also mimics the attack power and haste when used. So if you use gargoyle whenever deathbringers will procs there's a 2/3 chance it will get a significant dps boost (haste/strength proc) and the crit proc will be the only "bad" proc. Considering gargoyle has a 180 second cd and DBW has a 90 second cd, they line up perfectly so if you pop it during DBW, you will get a second proc and the next proc will be off cd when gargoyle comes back for massive damage again.
Taken from a guide
BLOOD SUBSPEC Hit > Strength > ArP > Haste >= Crit > Expertise > Agility
FROST SUBSPEC Hit > Strength > Haste > ArP > Crit > Expertise > Agility
From a previous guide, for this build Hit > Strength > ArP > Expertise > Crit >= Haste > Agility
and at bis Arpen will overtake Strength in value as it scales incredibly hard with itself and the majority of your damage will scale with it.
The only question is if this build should have sub-spec frost or sub-spec blood.
Guide referenced from:
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=326654
Very well thought out and well-made guide that DOES NOT consider arpen cap and a change from the build as significant as this.
Edit:
So I just calculated it, even with EVERYTHING BASED ON THE META BUILD 57% of all your damage is effected by armor penetration, with absolutely no change to your rotation, glyphs, talents, or anything. That's a ****ton of your dps being effected by arpen without any change. Make the changes to the rotation and you'll find yourself doing much, much more damage effected by the arpenEdited: December 8, 2019
-
Forum Veteran
Well, I made such a build, actually better single target dps build with capped ARP. After few Banes, LODs and heroic Halions it was clear that it is inferior in every way that counts. I'm sorry to say, but the math was done 10 years ago already. I understand how sweet it is to craft theories and make cool builds and stuff, but no matter how hard you wish it will not overcome the math.
It is clear you lack the experience and ability to actually test this in game, talking about t9 on Halion, you say my english is bad, but everyone who understands DK could understand what I'm saying. And that is allright. But please lets keep it theoretical and not suggest players to actually go for this build.
-
Member
You're quite clearly making false accusations and assumptions. You never tested this build, you never tested the rotation, and you ran LoD and bis stuff years ago with clearly different items and rotation priorities. You made some random build that was mathematically inferior to the original meta build (that took a lot of effort to create and is well rounded in every aspect) whereas this build is mathematically superior especially for lordaeron where single target dps is a must.
Please continue playing on icecrown with the 30% buff. You seem to not have experience on Lordaeron without the 30% buff let alone the buffed bosses.
-
Member
Also the bis build for aoe dps includes 258 ilvl tier 9 gearset for unholy because your dots can crit, with wandering plague they do 4x damage and that makes their aoe dps massive.
-
Forum Veteran
Allright,
Now I'm expecting some screenshots and proofs from ingame, I'll gladly admit that I'm wrong when I see them. Shouldn't be a problem for you to show some.
P.S.
With T9 only thing that will happen is you will overagro adds and die on Halion. Even without T9 UH can't really go full AoE nuke, it will overagro trough both ToTs and tank efforts on Embers. This is what I mean't, but you thought I don't know what T9 does? Btw I have 258 T9 set too in bank.Edited: December 9, 2019
-
Field Medic Moderator
Okay. I'll bite.
I would hope so, as it is a repost of an old EJ guide.
What are these calculations based on? Which boss fights? Are you testing on a dummy? How many targets are there? Is there any movement involved? Are you simming? Any of these things could have a significant impact on the overall impact of armor pen on your damage output.
Glyph of Pestilence is a minor glyph. Which is the 3rd major glyph that you use? With your gear list, talents, and these glyphs, the sims say that Glyph of Icy Touch > Glyph of Dark Death, by the way.
Anyway, I ran some simulations and some of the results I found are perplexing. Some of the things that I found reinforced questions I already had just from reading the guide and the thread.
#1. You listed your talents in the first post, but there seems to be something missing in the Unholy tree. Did you miss Blood-Caked Blade, or did you put those points elsewhere? Also, are you putting 1 point in Morbidity, or? This was the build I managed to put together based on your posts.
#2. How come you don't go for Two-Handed Weapon Specialization? Shouldn't this be the exact thing you're going for? You devalue haste in a few of your comments, but you go for Icy Talons instead of Two-Handed Weapon Specialization? Is this because Morbidity is considered too weak to make Two-Handed Weapon Specialization valuable? According to my sims (more on this later), both Black Ice and Improved Icy Touch are VERY weak talent choices on a single target with this build.
#3. Why are you devaluing haste by saying it only benefits your Gargoyle when it obviously benefits your auto attacks and anything you have that benefits from those (Shadowmourne procs, Necrosis, Blood-Caked Blade)?
#4. I did my best to represent your build, based on the information I found in the guide, and compared it to my own character (not proper BIS and built for more AoE) over on Icecrown. Same buffs (full raid buffs sans heroism/lust, pots/prepots and 30% ICC buff), both single target, etc. Here's what my results were;
Spoiler:Show
You say all this ****, but I don't see you posting any screenshots, logs, sims, etc. to support what you've posted here. Usually the burden of proof is on the person making the claim - and while it would be nice for him to post his own data, it's not unreasonable for people to question what you've posted.
-
Member
First off, let me just say I make no insults nor do I consider either of you guys to be unintelligent, I simply feel you both are biased. Please take no offense to my statements.
@angrylol
If aggro is a problem you can simply take 3 points in subversion to reduce threat by 24%, quite simple for that
@mercy
For the first post, it was based on a random screenshot of an unholy dks dps of about 8k dps on a random boss doing 8k dps, total of 1.6m damage.
Glyph of disease and pestilence, my bad, thought it was an obvious one when I started talking about pestilence refreshing diseases.
Talents were correct
I devalue haste here yet most of the damage is from autos with necrosis and bcb playing huge factors, your simulator looks poor at best because it's only factoring in the build without bis gear, without the correct gemming/chants, and it's not even arpen capped, let alone all the proper debuffs are applied on.
So
1). I've already addressed that blood-sub-spec might play a prevalent role in this build and might out perform frost sub-spec
2). I've already considered 2 points in reaping in favour of the 1 point in morbidity and 1 point in unholy blight you've shown
3). Sunder armour, Shattering throw, AND fairy fire will reduce boss armor and have a massive effect on your dps as an unholy dk considering you benefit from all of it even at the armor penetration cap (arpen cap of 1400 reduces all the armor of only lvl 80 targets, further armor debuffs are needed to reach true damage)
4). Arpen cap is absolutely 100% necessary, being 1400+ arpen is more valuable than 1382 or 1385, a few points over is better than 10-20 points under.
5). You should be using all raid buffs, all proper raid debuffs, arpen food + arpen flask to help reach the arpen cap while using the 20 all stats gaurdian elixir (this provides with +20 strength and agility, both buffed by raid buffs)
6). This is ONLY for absolutely bis gear and being pre-bis might have a huge negative effect on this build's dps. This build also can be easily modified to reach arpen cap
7). Your dk is blood-elf not orc, and loses 5 expertise + ghoul damage
8). Jewelcrafting is 1 of the required professions, and the other is not a factor.
9) You did not factor in hit cap as a requirement of your gemming, this is an obvious huge negative impact on dps, an oversight you made during your simulations, and I posted how many free stats are available to you in the original post for gemming and what your end stats would be pre-gems so you'd make sure to hit all the caps you need to. After capping arpen, hit, expertise you would gem strength of course, and 1315 is arpen cap before food and elixirs (1315+85= 1400)
10). Why does your simulation not show blood strike damage, necrosis damage, blood-caked-blades talents, auto-attacks damage?
11). Your gear is not properly enchanted
12). Even in the simulation my build doesn't have proper gems/sockets/enchants (no chant on pants is huge af imo) and no belt gem whereas you have all of it proper.
13). You very much so mis-represented my build with your simulation and you didn't take into account all the factors.
14). My build in your simulation is not expertise capped, hit capped, or actually arpen capped. All 3 are huge factors into my build. Hell even 1 missed scourge strike will severely tank it.
If you can provide me with the tools to do my own simulations I would love that. If you (as a trusty moderator) could provide me with the tools for rawr I would love to implement screenshots of my own simulations.
Also consider with your simulation to put the rotation I had
2 points in reaping instead of unholy blight and morbidity
SS + SS + BS + BS, SS + SS + SS, SS + SS + BS + Pestilence (or earlier right before diseases expire) Reset rotation
^(use blood tap 1 min cd for a death rune here if necessary)
Did you put the 3 glyphs, also I will edit the original postEdited: December 9, 2019
-
Forum Veteran
Well, this is what I got in sims
build from this guide If I understood correctly
Spoiler:Show
Current build I'm using
Spoiler:Show
So maybe he thinks sims accurately show what is happening in raids
P.S
I think you can get max 25% armor reduction, that is sunder+faery fire.3). Sunder armour, Shattering throw, AND fairy fire will reduce boss armorEdited: December 9, 2019
-
Member
Did you factor in being an orc? Also with this guide, I edited the original post to see how many gems go to what stats.
You should have an extra 200 stat points for strength (or socket bonuses) and that's only factoring in JC and not the second profession.
Also even with the sims that angrylol showed, my build out performs his build in dps, obviously not by an EXTREMELY large margin, but by a big margin.
Also factor in engineering into my original build and have the gloves haste enchant used in tandom with the gargoyle AND in tandem with DBW. If you're lucky (2/3 chance) you will get a good DBW proc for either a ****ton of haste or strength and the 340 haste from the gloves along with bloodlust and the initial trinket procs on sts, rune of the fallen crusader and everything procing together for extreme gargoyle dps.
-
Member
Also I would love a link to be able to download the Sims you guys are using. I don't have any sim of my own and I don't know any trusted source. If you could provide me with a link that'd be great @mercy
-
Forum Veteran
Mate... STR will outdps your build even if you get all Tanukas and stuff. And you will not be able to fill your role on valks and stuff.
You don't believe what sims show you will happen in raids. and stuff ofc.
I used (includes 2 bonus sockets from BS)
3 gems 10hit+10exp (each unlocks highest possible socket bonus)
1 nightmare tear to unlock relentless meta (unlocks socket bonus on chest)
17 arp gems, 3 of which are JC +34 stat gems
1 str gem
result was 1400 arp exactly, so idk where you get 200 strengt from.
And yes, race is Orc with winding sheet
And you said about engineer glove haste, so use 20 hit instead of that one 20 str. But you can't get nitro boosts.. or run around with even less hit, as you need 11% spell hit from gear for unholy(289 rating). And then you cant even cap everything because you drop jc or bs...Edited: December 9, 2019
-
Member
You're talking about t9.5 being good at RS 25 hc, seems like you've never raided on any end-game guild with the embers literally dying in a span of (sometimes) less than 6 seconds when they reach the off tank. Going t9 on those guilds will put you on the bottom of the dps charts, you will most likely get one and as much 2 ticks from your diseases and you will cripple (once again as if you were ARP specced) your DnD which is (on those scenarios) your greatest AoE ability by far.
Then for the build you're proposing: I don't like frost sub spec at all when you go for ARP, Blood sub spec does a bit better.
Reaping is a must (many of us have tested it before you) if you try to max out your SS. There should be no discussion here...
Most importantly we need proofs of how effective (on single target) your build is, so far I am just seeing ideas. You might be the only guy that has found a way in which ARP overcomes STR overall, but I hardly doubt it. Until then you will still find all the previous comments pointing out the missconceptions of your so called ''build''.
P.S: There was only one Arp UH that I used to know that was actually having a significative dps difference over STR ones; still can't be taken as an example since it was years ago and was getting boosted 24/7 with Hysteria/Tricks/ PI on Gargoyle (Which was a bug, of course).
-
Member
I have absolutely no idea where the hell you are getting your numbers from but the build has 1083 arpen before gems, and you gemmed for 340 (+42) arpen, perhaps that's with winding sheets replacement.
If you are orc you shouldn't gem expertise at all unless you replace eof cape for winding sheets
Also hit rating you only need +20 from gems
Now you're not using proper arpen elixir +45 arpen, +20 all stats gaurdian elixir and 40 arpen food buff, which results in more strength back in the build.
And even with all of that you literally just linked a simulation where my build out performs your build by almost 1k dps. Now if you factor in hysteria, tots, etc those all boost your dps immensely compared to the original build due to arpen cap + physical damage increases affecting the rest of your damage more in this build.
But.... you linked a sim that showed my build out-perform yours.
Also as for your more recent comment, the
1). t9 gear is a completely seperate build, not to be used with arpen cap.
2). Reaping is actually 3/3 in the blood sub-spec build and 2/3 in the frost sub-spec build
3). Your sim showed my build out dps your build by over 1k, which would be more significant if I'm the carry of the dps (hysteria + tots on me for even higher dps)
Edit: Please note this response was originally @angrylol and morfagor believing both players were the exact same player so it might seem confusing.Edited: December 9, 2019
