I need to complain

[Chianzie]

I agree that pugs should just be avoided. I had something similar happen to me about 2 months ago. It was a 25nm ICC pug. There were 3 DKs... myself, the raid leader and another DK. We were on festergut or something in that area. The third DK ended up getting kicked for some reason... I don't remember why but I do remember that it pissed me off because it was obvious that there was some loot that the RL and the DK were going to compete on that hadn't been rolled for yet.

So, me being me, I said something along the lines of "invite him back or you'll get banned for ninja in raid". So this ***** had the nerve to then kick me (I was banking on some of that loot too! lol). I reported him with good screenshots/evidence and did /who checks for several weeks. He didn't receive a ban. In my opinion, this is EXACTLY what ninja looting is. Instead of letting it get to the point at which you roll, you just remove your competition.

All this to say, join a guild. Avoid pugs... it exposes true human nature because there are typically no consequences and most people are in it for themselves --- GREEDY.

PS I had a great experience with a DK this morning in VOA. He actually asked me if I wanted one of the 2 items he won (I was on my DK again). I didn't take him up on the offer as he needed it more than I did. Although few and far between, there are some great people on this server.

[Sprotess]

The amount of players that think tank/healer items are theirs by default just because they're playing that specific role is overwhelming. Now that the gold squish is coming I suggest doing a player squish as well.

[angrylol]

The amount of players that think tank/healer items are theirs by default just because they're playing that specific role is overwhelming.

It's not overwhelming. It's how it always worked and still works for people with at least few cells rubbing together in their head.

[Sprotess]

Just because you're a 4.8k tank without offspec that doesn't mean you have priority on the loot over the 6.9k ret pushing as much dps as the bottom 6 guys that wanted to join as a 6.2 tank but couldn't because of you.

[angrylol]

That's exactly how works, there are no conditions unless negotiated otherwise, like I said.

So I join with my one of my bis chars and take a look what boss drops, see what I could use on some OS and I can just NEED ? That's so ridiculous, and probably you were sarcastic from the start, but still.

[Mercy]

The amount of players that think tank/healer items are theirs by default just because they're playing that specific role is overwhelming. Now that the gold squish is coming I suggest doing a player squish as well.

I don't know about you, but I find that usually if I ask politely to have an item (if I need it for my off-spec) if the other person doesn't need it, they will give it to me.

Just because you're a 4.8k tank without offspec that doesn't mean you have priority on the loot over the 6.9k ret pushing as much dps as the bottom 6 guys that wanted to join as a 6.2 tank but couldn't because of you.

If the tank in question needs the tank item as an upgrade to their mainspec (tank spec), then obviously they DO have priority over a 6.9k ret, regardless of whatever dps the ret is doing. Being BIS doesn't mean other people owe you for your services. If you want that priority on tank gear drops, then you could farm out some EoTs, buy up some tank gear easily, and start tanking dungeons & raids yourself with dps offset and trinkets.

In a raid environment, the loot rules are what the raid leader says they are, as per the Warmane in-game rules. If you don't like how they're handled, then either find a raid that has loot rules acceptable for you, start leading your own raids, or stop pugging and join a guild.

[Kovachut]

So, me being me, I said something along the lines of "invite him back or you'll get banned for ninja in raid". So this ***** had the nerve to then kick me (I was banking on some of that loot too! lol). I reported him with good screenshots/evidence and did /who checks for several weeks. He didn't receive a ban. In my opinion, this is EXACTLY what ninja looting is. Instead of letting it get to the point at which you roll, you just remove your competition.

Oh man, your case reminds me of something similar I experienced in the past. More than one year ago I wanted to play with my fdk alt and I joined a toc 25 nm raid. The RL seemed experienced - he took his time to assemble a group (twice actually), to explain tactics (even after several wipes) and he was very persistent that we would finish the raid till the end.

Fast forward to the moment, when we killed the twin valkyries - as the RL grabbed the loot (he said at start, that the loot would be distributed at the end of the raid), he said that dks would be loot banned, if they were to use Path of Frost, when people were falling. I thought that he was joking, but I didn't want to test his patience. However, when the time came to go to the last boss, someone decided to troll and used the aforementioned spell. The RL was very angry and he insisted that all dks (me included) would be denied from the loot. He didn't want to check the logs despite the responsible person actually admitting his mistake. The RL didn't want to listen. We wiped at the boss,then literally the same scenario occurred and all dks were kicked from the group.

And I swear, as ridiculous this may sound, all of this is true. Normally I am a very calm person, but I remember getting really salty back then, because I wasted extra time waiting until the raid fully assembled and I couldn't even get the achievement for having completed the instance, yet alone the chance to roll on some of the items. And the "best" part was how the RL was convinced, that making up a stupid rule in the middle of the raid wasn't wrong or unfair.

[Sprotess]

I don't know about you, but I find that usually if I ask politely to have an item (if I need it for my off-spec) if the other person doesn't need it, they will give it to me.




If the tank in question needs the tank item as an upgrade to their mainspec (tank spec), then obviously they DO have priority over a 6.9k ret, regardless of whatever dps the ret is doing. Being BIS doesn't mean other people owe you for your services. If you want that priority on tank gear drops, then you could farm out some EoTs, buy up some tank gear easily, and start tanking dungeons & raids yourself with dps offset and trinkets.

In a raid environment, the loot rules are what the raid leader says they are, as per the Warmane in-game rules. If you don't like how they're handled, then either find a raid that has loot rules acceptable for you, start leading your own raids, or stop pugging and join a guild.

Wasn't implying that pulling numbers makes other people owe you. Was just pointing out that some people gear up their offspecs using an already geared main spec and not having to start from scratch every time you want to play a different spec is a benefit to both the player in question and the raid.

Main spec changes exist and have been adopted by the community for a reason. As long as somebody isn't rolling for multiple specs during a run I don't see how one guy has priority over the other (except for guilds that are progressing heroic content, I could see a reason why you'd wanna gear up some specific roles first as long as you know they're gonna show up weekly for raids).

What you're saying is that if I want to play another spec I'm better off leveling up a new character because if I'm not playing that specific role I'm not allowed any loot, which is completely wrong.

[Thydus]

Yeah the whole "IM ROLLING MS TANK" thing is the biggest croc of **** i've ever seen pulled by 99% of players INCLUDING myself, I had almost a bis set of prot gear from 25hc cus no one needed it, then i began rolling ms tank cus i wanted to finish the set, yeah i never tanked jack **** besides a rdf hc occasionally for a friend.
If you want tank gear put it the **** on and go get it, just pure greed.

[Dosis91]

Just because you're a 4.8k tank without offspec that doesn't mean you have priority on the loot over the 6.9k ret pushing as much dps as the bottom 6 guys that wanted to join as a 6.2 tank but couldn't because of you.

agree, im tired of those ppl telling me i cant roll for a plate with int just because im a warrior, even thought im the first dps

[Mercy]

Wasn't implying that pulling numbers makes other people owe you. Was just pointing out that some people gear up their offspecs using an already geared main spec and not having to start from scratch every time you want to play a different spec is a benefit to both the player in question and the raid.

Yeah, see, this is something that aggravates me.
In addition to what Thydus already stated, no it is NOT a benefit to the raid.
You deciding that you should be allowed to roll for tank items because you have no interest in any of the dps loot, despite the fact that you're not tanking, is something I find absurd. Because now those tanks who are tanking the raid for you have more competition for the items they need. (But, **** them, amirite?) And why should you be given tank items over other dps player's offspecs? Because you don't have any interest in any of the dps gear? I guess those dps players who are in the raid for just one item are now ****ed out of any offspec gear they might have wanted, too.

Main spec changes exist and have been adopted by the community for a reason.

Yes, just like trying to get every person and their mother banned for taking an item that they may have wanted has been largely adopted by the community.
Greed.
Lack of respect for their fellow players.
Etc.
More reasons to play exclusively with a guild and not PUG raid.

As long as somebody isn't rolling for multiple specs during a run

Most people will always roll for multiple specs. That's what offspec rolls are.

I don't see how one guy has priority over the other

You don't see how you playing a bis Ret, rolling mainspec tank, gives you priority on tank gear over other dps players who also want tank gear (but still need one or two bis dps items)?

(except for guilds that are progressing heroic content, I could see a reason why you'd wanna gear up some specific roles first as long as you know they're gonna show up weekly for raids)

I highly doubt you've ever played with a progression guild given your mentality. When a progression guild feeds gear into their DPS players, do you think they let those players start taking tank and healer gear from tanks and healers because the DPS player no longer needs anything for their DPS spec?
**** no.
HELL no.
In such a guild, you will get your offspec gear when nobody needs it for a main-spec. End of story.

What you're saying is that if I want to play another spec I'm better off leveling up a new character because if I'm not playing that specific role I'm not allowed any loot, which is completely wrong.

What I'm saying is start of the spec with ANYTHING but taking items from other players who are main-spec playing that role.
You have all kinds of assets available to you other than making a new character. Don't be daft.
>Greed & Off-spec rolls
>Emblems of Triumph & Frost
>Crafting
>Auction House
>Point & Coin shops
Etc.

Use your head.

[Sprotess]

Yeah the whole "IM ROLLING MS TANK" thing is the biggest croc of **** i've ever seen pulled by 99% of players INCLUDING myself, I had almost a bis set of prot gear from 25hc cus no one needed it, then i began rolling ms tank cus i wanted to finish the set, yeah i never tanked jack **** besides a rdf hc occasionally for a friend.
If you want tank gear put it the **** on and go get it, just pure greed.

So people shouldn't fill in missing spots in a raid, they should either play what they wanna gear or just not raid at all? And what happens to you once you're BiS? You're loot banned forever?

If you've ever raided you've noticed that, in the case of 10 mans at least, there's always a shortage of tanks. If I don't need any tank gear from the respective raid do I wait 1 hour until the leader calls it raid over before even starting due to not being able to find people or do I jump in and tank it with the possibility of rolling on the gear I intended to in the first place? Most posts similar to yours come from salty past experiences or a feeling of superiority for playing a role less people usually cover (this is also a common theme on this server: people playing healers or tanks think they're god-sent. You've probably seen "I'm the tank, do what I say or I'll leave and you RO because of me" mentality at least once).

If you're rolling for tank gear and not using it then you're greedy and have 0 respect towards the people you raid with. It's not the systems fault, it's 100% yours. If there were no people like you we wouldn't have this argument in the first place and people would see the pro's of main spec changes instead of the con's.

agree, im tired of those ppl telling me i cant roll for a plate with int just because im a warrior, even thought im the first dps

As I replied to Mercy earlier, I'm not saying pulling numbers means you're free to roll on anything. If you weren't using 100% of your brainpower in an attempt to be sarcastic you'd actually read the whole comment/thread and not nitpick that one sentence that doesn't click with you.

[angrylol]

there's always a shortage of tanks.

wanted to join as a 6.2 tank but couldn't because of you.

Yeah, right. Which one is it then?

It great if you negotiate with leader and raid for you to roll your OS as main well before it starts so people can agree, voice against it and/or leave. That works. But you can't just proclaim it like its your right to do that. And then talk about "entitled and greedy" whily you practically say "I have a right to have a chance take item with 33% chance as third tank and literally take ANY chance from those other 5 platers in your raid". Hypocrite.

[Sprotess]

Yeah, see, this is something that aggravates me.
In addition to what Thydus already stated, no it is NOT a benefit to the raid.

Fetching only people that need items for their main specs in a raid significantly reduces the quality of a raid. For the sake of the argument consider people as being at the same skill level. You're gonna have way cleaner and faster runs if you're overgearing the content. Run an ICC25HC with a 5.8k average group and then run it with a BiS group. How is that not a benefit for the raid?

You deciding that you should be allowed to roll for tank items because you have no interest in any of the dps loot, despite the fact that you're not tanking, is something I find absurd.<...> And why should you be given tank items over other dps player's offspecs?

People that take items that they plan on never using shouldn't be allowed to raid at all. I'm not talking about those kind of people, I'm talking about people that wanna gear up an offspec they actually want to play.
Keeping your rolls to 1 spec only makes it fair regardless of what spec you chose. That's why you would have priority over other dps player's offspecs, they chose to gear up their current dps spec, you chose to prioritize your tank spec as being your "main" one. This is where we have different stands on the subject.

You don't see how you playing a bis Ret, rolling mainspec tank, gives you priority on tank gear over other dps players who also want tank gear (but still need one or two bis dps items)?

I was talking about a tank vs a bis dps rolling ms tank and why would one of them have priority over the other. And vice-versa, as I mentioned above, there's a huge shortage of tanks when it comes to 10 man raids. If you're a BiS tank and agree to tank the raid after 30-45 minutes of searching for a tank then other DPS shouldn't have priority on the loot over you. You joined as a DPS and agreed to do the raid a favor, you shouldn't be punished for that.

I highly doubt you've ever played with a progression guild given your mentality. When a progression guild feeds gear into their DPS players, do you think they let those players start taking tank and healer gear from tanks and healers because the DPS player no longer needs anything for their DPS spec?
**** no.
HELL no.
In such a guild, you will get your offspec gear when nobody needs it for a main-spec. End of story.

My experience with progression guilds has nothing to do with my stand on the matter. Any decent guild that progressed any sort of content knows there are a few roles that you would wanna gear up first in every tier that gets unlocked. Wasn't talking about DPS getting geared and then getting fed even more offspec gear, no idea where you even got that idea from.

What I'm saying is start of the spec with ANYTHING but taking items from other players who are main-spec playing that role.
You have all kinds of assets available to you other than making a new character. Don't be daft.
>Greed & Off-spec rolls
>Emblems of Triumph & Frost
>Crafting
>Auction House
>Point & Coin shops
Etc.

Use your head.

Exactly what I said. Your opinion is that if I want to play a different spec I need to start from scratch. I'll take only the leftovers and every raid I do is charity. I don't and I will never agree to that. I've personally passed more items than I actually took in the last few months because I knew the person and I knew they're gonna make use of the item, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to roll on the item in the first place.

This is also a horrible idea to implement in any guild. If you have any sort of experience with raiding in a guild you'd know that raids can get quite difficult to fill up with a proper setup. In an end-game scenario at least, you're gonna have people switching characters constantly depending on what roles are missing. Telling people to log a role you miss but telling them they can't roll any loot as reward for helping the guild is the fastest way to disbanding.

[Sprotess]

It great if you negotiate with leader and raid for you to roll your OS as main well before it starts so people can agree, voice against it and/or leave. That works.

I agree and this is exactly my point. I don't see anything wrong with doing this.

whily you practically say "I have a right to have a chance take item with 33% chance as third tank and literally take ANY chance from those other 5 platers in your raid". Hypocrite.

Having a hard time figuring out what you wanted to say here, but I'm assuming you're talking about competition on gear. More competition on one set of gear means less competition on the other. That's the point of a main spec change, yes, you're gonna have more competition on tank/dps/heal whatever you change your main spec to but you'll have less competition on your original spec. Isn't it the same thing?