Goodbye Lordaeron PVP

[slaidais]

CROSSREALM MUST BE REMOVED! the only enjoyable pvp on lordeon is now only in wintergasp. And the multiboxers that devs are allowing here is a ****ing disgrace to server. And calling this server "BLIZZIKE" is a disgrace too. there was no such stupid **** on retail - "blizzlike server" my ***. you could just introduce paytowin on lord too then.

[Cozzolino]

My 2 cents, blissfully ignoring the hilarious get gud posts who probably failed the reading comprehension check: this thread is about the discouraging environment in which Lordaeron players approach PVP. It's not about winning, losing, carrying or getting dumpstered, but I do understand some people do not value fun and engaging competition highly, sad

I have mixed feelings about Crossrealm PVP. I understand that the purpose is to shorten the queues for Lordaeron specifically, but at this point it is safe to say that the Lordaeron partecipation has shrinked directly because of crossrealm. Most BGs I join, I am the only player from Lordaeron, or one of two/three at most over a hundred. I am not saying that Lordaeron players don't play PVP at all, nor that they can't enjoy it. I'm saying that the crossrealm model directly discouraged many people from Lordaeron from playing PVP at all. And I'm sorry for pissing off hardcore Lordaeron PVP players out there, but you are a minority and, while I admire and support your efforts, you are not rapresentative of the feelings and thoughts of everyone else.

Then comes into play the design issues of WotLK PVP, exacerbated by the bis characters accumulating over the endless lifespan of the patch we're playing on. It's no surprise BGs are a fiesta of bis DK/Warriors/Palas (incidentally, the only classes that can use Shadowmourne) and SPriests (just all around the most complete caster), the other classes function as fancy decorations - which one may argue is the inherent nature of teamwork game to orchestrate a collective effort in which everyone plays a part (as dull as it might be), but the truth is that classes that can wield Shadowmourne outclass those who can not in their own field (dealing damage, of course).

It's not a "GS bracket" system, it's actually an "ilevel" system.
It was a really good move from Warmane, but they could improve it even further by adding an additional ilevel bracket between the current low one and the current high one. In my experience a lot of pvp players on Lordaeron are usually slightly above the low ilevel bracket ilevel-wise, so they often end up against bis-people. If Warmane added a third "middle" bracket then that issue would be solved.

[...] the conclusion was that it would dilute the players too much and just make queue times for all categories too long.

What about slightly raising the bar for what is considered a high iLVL queue? Even a tiny bit would improve Lordaeron PVP a lot, since what consists as a solid PVP character on Lordaeron (Full Relentless, maybe one or two Wrathful pieces, 264 PVE fill) is but an average PVP character for Blackrock/Icecrown. From my limited experience, there is no shortage of characters which actually qualify for high iLVL queue, at the same time low iLVL queue characters are generally not going to stay there forever. Then again, I don't know what accurately qualifies as high and low iLVL queue so this might be impossible.

The real question here is: how many people would rather not have Crossrealm, and would they PVP more if there wasn't? I would say at least a decent amount of people form Lordaeron would rather not play into a match where they will be extremely outclassed by design, and thus they aren't. Which ultimately means there's at least some tweaking to do, and yet I'm seeing the merit in the crossrealm design.

[Dazed1985]

Well from my experience of playing wow since wrath this is normal. When I joined wrath back in the day it wasn't at the beginning of the expansion it was close to the end of it. So i'm a new player leveling to get to 80, while at the same time dealing with people who have been 80 the whole expansion. These people out geared me in everything I did. When I played pvp I was out geared just like what your crying about. It's perfectly normal, there will never be people in this game who have the same gear. Someone out there will always be better geared than you. So do like a lot of people did back in the day. Grind out dungeons and take you currency and exchange them for the pvp currency if you don't want to do the grind that is expected in this game. Or you can go play retail wow where everything is given to you and you don't have to work for anything. Me personally I prefer the grind bc it gives me a goal to complete and the game does not get boring like it did in retail when blizzard started listening to all the cry babies. Besides think about how sweet it will be when you put the time in and get your awesome pvp gear and you face rolling noobs like everyone else is doing. The reward is there you just have to work for it. No one gets a trophy just for showing up to the game you have to win before you get that.

[Thorbjorn]

Well from my experience of playing wow since wrath this is normal. When I joined wrath back in the day it wasn't at the beginning of the expansion it was close to the end of it. So i'm a new player leveling to get to 80, while at the same time dealing with people who have been 80 the whole expansion. These people out geared me in everything I did. When I played pvp I was out geared just like what your crying about. It's perfectly normal, there will never be people in this game who have the same gear. Someone out there will always be better geared than you. So do like a lot of people did back in the day. Grind out dungeons and take you currency and exchange them for the pvp currency if you don't want to do the grind that is expected in this game. Or you can go play retail wow where everything is given to you and you don't have to work for anything. Me personally I prefer the grind bc it gives me a goal to complete and the game does not get boring like it did in retail when blizzard started listening to all the cry babies. Besides think about how sweet it will be when you put the time in and get your awesome pvp gear and you face rolling noobs like everyone else is doing. The reward is there you just have to work for it. No one gets a trophy just for showing up to the game you have to win before you get that.

How it was on retail is irrelevant though. It's understandable that there will always be people better geared than you, yeah, but not in this amount. The issue with crossrealm is that, for example, people from Lordaeron whose gear progression is WAAAY slower than Icecrown's get paired with people from it. Getting HC items or BiS gear on Lordaeron is a massive job that actually takes a lot of time. On Icecrown it's a completely different story be it because of coin shop or because of ez raid difficulty. Now when you put people from Icecrown where every average Joe has several BiS parts and people from Lordaeron where HC raiding is unreachable for causals then you have a problem. Such gear difference is of course not something anyone enjoys except the people with upper hand (Icecrown players in this case). I'm focusing on the HC raiding part here, since 80% of classes use HC off-parts in PvP.

[Frysharry]

How it was on retail is irrelevant though. It's understandable that there will always be people better geared than you, yeah, but not in this amount. The issue with crossrealm is that, for example, people from Lordaeron whose gear progression is WAAAY slower than Icecrown's get paired with people from it. Getting HC items or BiS gear on Lordaeron is a massive job that actually takes a lot of time.

people from Lordaeron where HC raiding is unreachable for causals then you have a problem.

Is it slower than Icecrown? Sure. But it's nowhere where it once was. ICC was repeatedly nerfed over the past couple of years to the point where it's completely accessible to a majority of players. If you start on Lordareon, with full knowledge that it's a buffed realm, and then complain that it's "too hard" to get geared, I really don't know what to tell you. This server is obsessed with being xXxHaRdCoRexXx raider when it's no longer the case. More than 7 guilds are farming LoD every week -- this isn't the same server it was two years ago. If you are unable to clear minimum 7/8 HC bosses every week, you're actually braindead.

The only issue right now with crossrealm BGs is that the bracket system is broken. As a result, you will get fresh 80s in leveling blues/greens queueing into full 6.3k wrathful PvP. This is the only thing that needs to be addressed right now. Anyone who unironically advocates for removing crossrealm really has no understanding of what PvP was on this server before it was merged. PvP is healthy. There's queues at every time of the day. You can actually do arenas without risk of being banned for wintrading.

[Darmunh]

As a regular PvP'er from Lordaeron all I can advise you is to gear up in PvE first and then PvP. Raiding is a very important part of the Lordaeron experience. I have my fun in bgs/arena and overall PvP now that I'm decently geared at 6.3k gs.

[Thorbjorn]

Is it slower than Icecrown? Sure. But it's nowhere where it once was. ICC was repeatedly nerfed over the past couple of years to the point where it's completely accessible to a majority of players. If you start on Lordareon, with full knowledge that it's a buffed realm, and then complain that it's "too hard" to get geared, I really don't know what to tell you. This server is obsessed with being xXxHaRdCoRexXx raider when it's no longer the case. More than 7 guilds are farming LoD every week -- this isn't the same server it was two years ago. If you are unable to clear minimum 7/8 HC bosses every week, you're actually braindead.

The only issue right now with crossrealm BGs is that the bracket system is broken. As a result, you will get fresh 80s in leveling blues/greens queueing into full 6.3k wrathful PvP. This is the only thing that needs to be addressed right now. Anyone who unironically advocates for removing crossrealm really has no understanding of what PvP was on this server before it was merged. PvP is healthy. There's queues at every time of the day. You can actually do arenas without risk of being banned for wintrading.

I did point out "for casuals". Fact is, casuals won't see HC clears or LoD any time soon. If they were on Icecrown they certainly would. And if you noticed, casuals make up 90% of the BG. That's what makes it unfavorable for Lordaeron and why there's literally nobody from Lordaeron queing BGs anymore. There's 12k people on both Lordaeron and Icecrown now, so the "less population" argument doesn't work anymore. Fact is, nobody on Lordaeron plays BGs anymore because of the reasons I stated earlier. You might be decently geared by Lordaeron's standards but that gear will be dog**** compared to what you could've gotten on Icecrown at the same amount of time and half the effort. I've been on Lordaeron since it's launch and I'd trade 10 minute queues over this any time, much like the vast majority of Lordaeron's population.

[Frysharry]

Fact is, casuals won't see HC clears or LoD any time soon.

Again, this isn't three years ago. Content has been repeatedly nerfed over and over and over again. If you are unable to clear at least 7-8 HCs every week, you're a braindead player. The game should not be designed/balanced/catered around these people, especially "end-game" stuff. When the most recent BQL, Professor, and Sindra nerfs went into effect, a ton of guilds who were 'struggling' beforehand suddenly secured their kills that week. This gives you access to most HC off-pieces as a 'casual' raider. If you're not able to get PvE gear at this point in the server, leave and play a more recent WoW expansion where gear doesn't factor into PvP, get better, or find a better guild.

And if you noticed, casuals make up 90% of the BG. That's what makes it unfavorable for Lordaeron and why there's literally nobody from Lordaeron queing BGs anymore. There's 12k people on both Lordaeron and Icecrown now, so the "less population" argument doesn't work anymore. Fact is, nobody on Lordaeron plays BGs anymore because of the reasons I stated earlier. You might be decently geared by Lordaeron's standards but that gear will be dog**** compared to what you could've gotten on Icecrown at the same amount of time and half the effort. I've been on Lordaeron since it's launch and I'd trade 10 minute queues over this any time, much like the vast majority of Lordaeron's population.

If it's genuinely 90%, then it demonstrates that you don't need excellent gear or 400 IQ to play sufficiently well to have an impact in BGs. Your definition of casual is changing pretty drastically here, from 'incapable of clearing nerfed content on Lordareon' to '90% of the WotLK PvE realm server population'. I'm glad you're willing to trade 10 minute queues on EU peak hours so you can gearbash people all day; I would like to retain my 20 second EU queue and 5 minute NA queue times so I can actually play the game on my evening hours.

At the end of the day, what it seems like people like yourself want to do is to be able to play exclusively verse Lordareon players so you can gearbash them repeatedly until they stop queueing. Whenever you're forced to play against people who have similar or slightly better gear, it's all crying. I'm a virtually BIS PvE Hunter with most Wrathful and all of the PvE off-pieces I could ever want, and yet at the end of the day I can't get above 1.9k in soloq/2s/3s not because of gear and how "unfair" it is that Icecrown and Blackrock have easier access to the same gear, but because I am a bad player in PvP. And in the situation you want, I would have no incentive or need to become better because there would only be 5 teams max in 2s who are comparatively geared and 20+ undergeared (3s wouldn't even be able to be queued for) that would be farming each other until one decides to stop queuing. Stop blaming your inability to improve and get better on other peoples' ability to accumulate gear faster/easier (alternatively you could go join them).

MORE IMPORTANTLY, when it comes to BGs, still nobody in this thread beside myself seems have noticed/mentioned that the ilvl brackets have been broken recently, which I bet is what the majority of players are actually complaining about, which is completely valid because fresh level 80s with leveling blues/greens should not be queuing into 6.3 PvP players. This is the #1 priority that needs to be fixed right now because it's actually ruining BGs.

[Cozzolino]

I really, really, disagree with the notion that Lordaeron got anywhere near being "easy", especially when it comes to Heroic encounters. Pretending getting an ACTUALLY Bis character on Lordaeron is anywhere easy or even remotely a widespread achievement is downright dishonest and stinks of misguided elitism. I don't understand why you would support such a detached point of view. People work their *** off for months building up and training 25 people to even take a shot at LoD. A few other bosses require a similar investment of resources and time aswell, if anything they are still important milestone building up to LoD that still prove to be challenging even for the solid users. 16 guilds ever pulled off a LoD on Lordaeron, less than that currently do, the same applies to the 84 guilds that did on Icecrown, of course. Only the absolute finest have access to the best gear on Lordaeron, and virtually only they can hold a candle against simply "solid" Icecrown player.

I will remind you, in case you forgot, that the first Lich King 25 Heroic kill could only happen after a crucial nerf 3 months into the patch, and a few weeks later it was buffed again into a fight that proved to be too hard again even for guilds that previously accomplish it. Since then, the whole raid underwent adjustment for the best or worst, so it's actually not as straightforward as you make it sound. Lordaeron is a proving ground with no room for bums at the highest level of play. A ****ter with good friends on Icecrown could actually get carried through the "hardest" content without breaking a sweat. Everyone on Lordaeron who achieved anything noteworthy had to carry their own weight. A Lordaeron character is inherently different from an Icecrown character, so if you need to throw them together in a competition, you must account for that or inevitably screw them over. Maybe that will also shed some light on why "Casual" on Lordaeron really refers to 90% of the population relative to the challenges of the realm.

At the end of the day, what it seems like people like yourself want to do is to be able to play exclusively verse Lordareon players so you can gearbash them repeatedly until they stop queueing.

At the end of the day, I don't want anybody to be in that position, nor - I think - anybody would necessarily be in that position in a world where there's no Crossrealm and Lordaeron PVP scene could grow organically. At the end of the day, nothing you said could convince anyone to get into PVP in the state it is, neither you helped score a LoD for anyone for that matter. If Lordaeron partecipation in PVP has sunken, then it's an issue I personally want to tackle at its roots. It's also an issue you can choose to ignore, but kindly don't try to push your headcanon.

Crossrealm can stay, but it has to be better.


Just an inb4 to pre-emptively burn the strawman: nothing about PVE skills says anything about a player PVP skills, nor being able to withstand PVP challenges that are out of most people reach can be used as a metric for decision making. This is player versus player, not player versus dummy. One could be gifted in PVP and able to perform so much better than a lesser opponent in much better gear. Good for them. When a gifted PVP player on Lordaeron meets a gifted PVP player on Icecrown, he's going to get his *** handed to him on a silver plate.

[Thorbjorn]

Again, this isn't three years ago. Content has been repeatedly nerfed over and over and over again. If you are unable to clear at least 7-8 HCs every week, you're a braindead player. The game should not be designed/balanced/catered around these people, especially "end-game" stuff. When the most recent BQL, Professor, and Sindra nerfs went into effect, a ton of guilds who were 'struggling' beforehand suddenly secured their kills that week. This gives you access to most HC off-pieces as a 'casual' raider. If you're not able to get PvE gear at this point in the server, leave and play a more recent WoW expansion where gear doesn't factor into PvP, get better, or find a better guild.



If it's genuinely 90%, then it demonstrates that you don't need excellent gear or 400 IQ to play sufficiently well to have an impact in BGs. Your definition of casual is changing pretty drastically here, from 'incapable of clearing nerfed content on Lordareon' to '90% of the WotLK PvE realm server population'. I'm glad you're willing to trade 10 minute queues on EU peak hours so you can gearbash people all day; I would like to retain my 20 second EU queue and 5 minute NA queue times so I can actually play the game on my evening hours.

At the end of the day, what it seems like people like yourself want to do is to be able to play exclusively verse Lordareon players so you can gearbash them repeatedly until they stop queueing. Whenever you're forced to play against people who have similar or slightly better gear, it's all crying. I'm a virtually BIS PvE Hunter with most Wrathful and all of the PvE off-pieces I could ever want, and yet at the end of the day I can't get above 1.9k in soloq/2s/3s not because of gear and how "unfair" it is that Icecrown and Blackrock have easier access to the same gear, but because I am a bad player in PvP. And in the situation you want, I would have no incentive or need to become better because there would only be 5 teams max in 2s who are comparatively geared and 20+ undergeared (3s wouldn't even be able to be queued for) that would be farming each other until one decides to stop queuing. Stop blaming your inability to improve and get better on other peoples' ability to accumulate gear faster/easier (alternatively you could go join them).

MORE IMPORTANTLY, when it comes to BGs, still nobody in this thread beside myself seems have noticed/mentioned that the ilvl brackets have been broken recently, which I bet is what the majority of players are actually complaining about, which is completely valid because fresh level 80s with leveling blues/greens should not be queuing into 6.3 PvP players. This is the #1 priority that needs to be fixed right now because it's actually ruining BGs.

It's obvious you're from Icecrown and have no clue what the raiding scene on Lordaeron is so I'll just stop replying here.

[Stepkid]

Making cross-realm optional is a very bad idea as it will sabotage the PvP population on Blackrock, as well as the queue time for bgs will drastically increase for all the wotlk realms. You can't expect everyone to be of equal gear as you because someone or the other is going to have better gear than you. All these "make cross-realm optional" makes it seem like Lordaeron players are jealous of others having better gear than them, nothing else. If you are that jealous you just have to grind more hard in PvE and PvP, instead of giving up and posting here to make cross-realm optional. With that being said, I think cross-realm will not be made optional as mentioned several times prior.

It's obvious you're from Icecrown and have no clue what the raiding scene on Lordaeron is so I'll just stop replying here.

Thorbjorn is rude to all those who don't agree with his point, so I recommend putting him on forum ignore.

[Cozzolino]

Baseless assumptions, uninformed opinions, biases

Maybe if you stopped pretending it's an issue with Lordaeron players attitude and actually consider the glaring differences between realms, nobody would be rude with you.

Besides, some of us don't support removing crossrealm and are looking into alternative solutions involving tweaks to the matchmaking system.

[Stepkid]

Maybe if you stopped pretending it's an issue with Lordaeron players attitude and actually consider the glaring differences between realms, nobody would be rude with you.

It's actually an issue with Lordaeron players because majority of them asking to make cross-realm optional are Lordaeron players, so nothing to pretend here. All 4 realms are wotlk realms, there are no glaring differences between them since it's not a different expansion like cata or panda.

[Cozzolino]

What you just said makes no ****ing sense.

I'm 100% sure you've never stepped in a Lordaeron raid. This bull**** right here:

All 4 realms are wotlk realms, there are no glaring differences between them

Is a downright lie, only someone who doesn't know what Lordaeron is about would say something like that. You are suggesting that a 1x realm with buffed numbers, lowered berserker timers, and no ICC buff is THE SAME as a 7x realm with blizzlike numbers, blizzlike berserker timers, blizzlike ICC buff. You, sir, are a dishonest person with a dishonest opinion, and you have no right to come here and tell people that their concerns are unfounded just cause you can not grasp the meaning of context. I'll make it easier for your trudging brain to understand the difference:

Lordaeron is WotLK on max difficulty setting
Icecrown is WotLK on easy difficulty setting

On your next ICC25, disable the raid buff and see how far you can get. Know that you are better geared than a Lordaeron player on the same fight AND with the blizzlike numbers. Disable the ICC buff, I dare you, and you would still be experiencing but a washed out version of what Lordaeron is like.

Of course Lordaeron players have issues with crossrealm, because they are playing on Lordaeron. Of course you would not understand the problem, because you never playied on Lordaeron. The issue is not Lordaeron PLAYERS, it's LORDAERON design that does not translate into Icecrown and Blackrock design. And yet here we are, us having to explain the most basic things, and you trying your damn hardest to look like a clown.

[bunny89]

People can wait 6 min For 1 bg why not Remove cross-realm .