1. May 12, 2020  
    TL;DR Find a guild, where people raid, pugs in lordearon are real pugs, like STS Reserved in RS LULW, without guild you will never be able to do LK im pretty sure

  2. May 12, 2020  
    I'm seeing lots of "I'm not whining but..." then lots of whining. I don't think the GS criteria is perfect but you people seem to refuse to see there isn't a size fits all solution here because everyone's circumstances are different and we tend to think "but muh situation is different" so the line has to be drawn somewhere.

    As people have pointed out above, Lordaeron's content is buffed. Bosses hit harder, have larger health pools and shorter enrages. This means that every single player in raid needs to perform better than they should to in Icecrown or other easier realms. Harsh truth: Lordaeron's average player knows **** all about their class or what to do if they manage to join a raid so the reasoning usually is Potential moron A with better gear > Potential moron B with worse gear. Do all classes perform the same with the same average gear? No. Is player skill a decisive factor? Of course. But meeting the GS/Achievement bar with 2 players I don't personally know playing the same class I'm picking the one with the better gear especially if the difference is significant because there is no addon that can measure class knowledge or personal skill before the fight starts. That being said, GS and achievements are nothing more than tools that can be misused. Are some GS requirements outrageous given the raid? Of course, 4.8 is a pretty fair and easy number to reach for Ony25 and 5.5 is definitely too high for a maybeish 3+ ICC25 but nobody is forcing you to join those raids whose requierements you don't agree with.

    How do Raid Leaders decide who is in and who is out? We alredy have one solution, it's an addon called Gearscore. What's the alternative you people suggest? So far none besides lower GS requirements. Why don't you organize your own raids and allow people with lower Gs than usual to join? I think we know why. I know self reflection is kinda lost on many of you but since some new people might be reading this thread here's some food for thought to make their stay more bearable:


    * Give a long look at yourself - I'd bet good money many of you complainers are melee plate users. Guess what, that class is over represented and incredibly gear dependent so you're gonna have an extra hard time joining pugs because those spots already fill fast as it is, not to mention 90% of the ICC10 pugs are organized by a melee plate or already have one in raid. Also get ready to wait probably months to get your hands on Shadow's Edge in a pug whose loot you don't control (and that assuming the pug can even kill Festergut). In case you're not a plate dps there are lots of things you can do to compesate for your lack of gear such as learning all you can about your class and the bosses you're facing, having all your gear properly enchanted and your gems on point. This expansion is 10 years old so there are tons of information and videos about boss strategies and classes.

    * Value your time - Not any raid will do. I mean sure, go do VOA25 or Onyxia as soon as you can after the reset but don't jump into just any ICC25 raid, especially if the RL is sketchy or a nobody. Pro-Tip: if they happen to be close to you inspect their gear and achievements, that info alone can save you lots of time waiting for the raid to be full just to die to Marrowgar.

    * Know the people you're raiding with - Related to previous point I try to follow this principle: Don't reward greed or stupidity. I'm not busting my *** so that some ******* I have never seen before gets their TOC25 melee trinket. I'm also not staying in a raid if I spot a hilariously under GS player or with bad talents/gear choices and they're not removed when I tell the RL. Doesn't matter how good you are, you can't make it up for 4-5 underperforming people who have the same chances to roll and win your gear to boot. Also the RL in this situation may be an ***** and **** you over in other interesting ways.

    * Be busy - I hate Dalaran, it's so ****ing crowded and small that I can't sit on my *** and wait for the right raid to pop. So I keep myself busy, I farm, do dailies or level up other toons meanwhile. Also there is nothing more frustrating than afking for hours just to end the session with 0 raiding done, so don't stay idle.

    * All the previous points are valid, but also bull****. JOIN A GUILD. Be nice, be respectful and be helpful and you'll find yourself doing content you probably shouldn't be doing according to GS. Also joining a guild is the foot in the door for many people to get the achievements needed for many pugs so don't gimp yourself doing the lone wolf thing because fresh 80s with **** gear are a dime a dozen, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE A PLATE DPS. Join a guild. Join a guild. For ****'s sake join a ****ing guild.

  3. May 12, 2020  
    there is no addon that can measure class knowledge or personal skill before the fight starts.
    common joke I've seen and made even when I played on Outland: BrainScore can be between 0 and 1000, but you only find out when it's too late... on Lordaeron it's more 0 to 500 due to buffed content, and you add it to GearScore to find out the PlayerScore... 4.7k with brain can do as good or better than 5.2k without one (because dead players don't do damage/healing or can tank)

  4. May 12, 2020  
    common joke I've seen and made even when I played on Outland: BrainScore can be between 0 and 1000, but you only find out when it's too late... on Lordaeron it's more 0 to 500 due to buffed content, and you add it to GearScore to find out the PlayerScore... 4.7k with brain can do as good or better than 5.2k without one (because dead players don't do damage/healing or can tank)
    5.2k don't have to be dead to do **** damage. You'll be surprised how many people don't know their class considering they had to level it on x1 rates. I mean, how a level 80 warr who leveled as prot don't know he don't have to stance dance anymore for charging? Do you even read the talents you take? or a fire mage who spam blizzard for aoe, and use arcane missiles after every fireball.

  5. May 16, 2020  
    Honestly, this discusion that you guys have is in my mind ever since I came to Warmane and leveled up to max. And I kinda get both sides of the arguments. Asking ridiculous amount of GS for pretty trivial content (or at least trivial in my eyes) is annoying, altho I really get it why.

    A bit of a backup story, hope you don't get it as a self-brag/flex or whatever. I've started playing late 2006 on retail all the way to BFA (I quit last November). I raided in world top200 guild most of my time ever since wotlk, all the way to legion. In BFA we pushed the world100 for title with the same amount of raid time, that could be considered casual (3hrs 4days a week, we never got crazy raid times, tho we had a really great roster and could potentionally push world10-20 if we did the time investment). And ever since MoP I've been playing on private wotlk servers when we were on farm on retail. Loads of those private servers did have similiar GS requirements for pugs(even retail had that), BUT, a big but, those people with such a gearscore most of the time actually did pull their weight and did dps/hps according to their gear. Which is something I fail to see here on warmane. I'm not saying everyone is bad here, but majority of people play like they logged on that char accidentaly and never read their talents/spells, or as they didnt level/gear that char.

    Few examples, VoA25 where I topped damage with 9.2k as a 5.1k gs unholy. There was a 6.2k gs frost dk, 5.9k gs shadow etc. At least these two could have outrun me pretty easily, but didn't. Most 5.5k people were battling just above tanks, some DPSers were below tank too, just how?

    RHCs are the same, +-5.8k gs people barely doing 3k dps overall I don't get how. Most RHC I end up doing between 45% to 60% damage done not because people would be lower geared than me, but because they just do random numbers almost like they logged on a char which isn't theirs.

    I honestly kinda fear what to expect in ICC/TOC when I keep seeing people like that. So again, in normal circumstances I'd say the GS requirement is high, but seeing what I saw so far I almost think the high req is not enough sometimes. Which is something I'm not used to from other privates like Molten, or Gamer's District, where clearing 12/12 with a pug was normal (ofc these servers had ICC buff, which changes it drastically, but still, even retail pugs pre-buff were possible, while here it looks like guild-perk to clear more than 4bosses.

    Even tho the biggest reason for me to quit retail was the concent itself being boring, the second reason were raid times. I felt like cutting the raid times and just go back to just to wotlk again for fun times doing ICC when I feel like instead of set days and hours when to be online. From what I saw so far, I think I'll have to commit again to raid times, or just not clear ICC while staying guildless, which is a bit sad. Thanks to corona it feels natural to join guild for a bit again wouldn't hurt, it's just sad how bad random people are so many years after release, now that there's so many guides online.

  6. May 16, 2020  
    The gearscore requirements got inflated after the massive EoF farm in Dec/Jan. Also if you are Melee DPS plater you are playing on very hard difficulty. Ofc you're not gonna get invited to group when 30 of you are competing for 5-6 spots. I've never heard of Boomkins, Hunters, Shadow Priests or Demo Locks complaining about requirements. And then there's RSham and HPal for which groups sit around for 1h until they join.

  7. May 18, 2020  
    I'm seeing lots of "I'm not whining but..." then lots of whining. I don't think the GS criteria is perfect but you people seem to refuse to see there isn't a size fits all solution here because everyone's circumstances are different and we tend to think "but muh situation is different" so the line has to be drawn somewhere.

    As people have pointed out above, Lordaeron's content is buffed. Bosses hit harder, have larger health pools and shorter enrages. This means that every single player in raid needs to perform better than they should to in Icecrown or other easier realms. Harsh truth: Lordaeron's average player knows **** all about their class or what to do if they manage to join a raid so the reasoning usually is Potential moron A with better gear > Potential moron B with worse gear. Do all classes perform the same with the same average gear? No. Is player skill a decisive factor? Of course. But meeting the GS/Achievement bar with 2 players I don't personally know playing the same class I'm picking the one with the better gear especially if the difference is significant because there is no addon that can measure class knowledge or personal skill before the fight starts. That being said, GS and achievements are nothing more than tools that can be misused. Are some GS requirements outrageous given the raid? Of course, 4.8 is a pretty fair and easy number to reach for Ony25 and 5.5 is definitely too high for a maybeish 3+ ICC25 but nobody is forcing you to join those raids whose requierements you don't agree with.

    How do Raid Leaders decide who is in and who is out? We alredy have one solution, it's an addon called Gearscore. What's the alternative you people suggest? So far none besides lower GS requirements. Why don't you organize your own raids and allow people with lower Gs than usual to join? I think we know why. I know self reflection is kinda lost on many of you but since some new people might be reading this thread here's some food for thought to make their stay more bearable:


    * Give a long look at yourself - I'd bet good money many of you complainers are melee plate users. Guess what, that class is over represented and incredibly gear dependent so you're gonna have an extra hard time joining pugs because those spots already fill fast as it is, not to mention 90% of the ICC10 pugs are organized by a melee plate or already have one in raid. Also get ready to wait probably months to get your hands on Shadow's Edge in a pug whose loot you don't control (and that assuming the pug can even kill Festergut). In case you're not a plate dps there are lots of things you can do to compesate for your lack of gear such as learning all you can about your class and the bosses you're facing, having all your gear properly enchanted and your gems on point. This expansion is 10 years old so there are tons of information and videos about boss strategies and classes.

    * Value your time - Not any raid will do. I mean sure, go do VOA25 or Onyxia as soon as you can after the reset but don't jump into just any ICC25 raid, especially if the RL is sketchy or a nobody. Pro-Tip: if they happen to be close to you inspect their gear and achievements, that info alone can save you lots of time waiting for the raid to be full just to die to Marrowgar.

    * Know the people you're raiding with - Related to previous point I try to follow this principle: Don't reward greed or stupidity. I'm not busting my *** so that some ******* I have never seen before gets their TOC25 melee trinket. I'm also not staying in a raid if I spot a hilariously under GS player or with bad talents/gear choices and they're not removed when I tell the RL. Doesn't matter how good you are, you can't make it up for 4-5 underperforming people who have the same chances to roll and win your gear to boot. Also the RL in this situation may be an ***** and **** you over in other interesting ways.

    * Be busy - I hate Dalaran, it's so ****ing crowded and small that I can't sit on my *** and wait for the right raid to pop. So I keep myself busy, I farm, do dailies or level up other toons meanwhile. Also there is nothing more frustrating than afking for hours just to end the session with 0 raiding done, so don't stay idle.

    * All the previous points are valid, but also bull****. JOIN A GUILD. Be nice, be respectful and be helpful and you'll find yourself doing content you probably shouldn't be doing according to GS. Also joining a guild is the foot in the door for many people to get the achievements needed for many pugs so don't gimp yourself doing the lone wolf thing because fresh 80s with **** gear are a dime a dozen, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE A PLATE DPS. Join a guild. Join a guild. For ****'s sake join a ****ing guild.
    THANK YOU. THANK YOU. I cant upvote comments so thats all i can do. Thats all really. You complain about requirements? Organise your own raid. And then think about it, You can take one 6k dude or one 5k who says he knows what to do. My experience has taught me that probabilities are that Potential moron A with 6k gs is going to perform better than Potential genius with 5k gs who prolly doesnt even have enchants or gems. And when you ask them they say why would i enchant gear im changing. GUESS WHAT? You arent changing the fcking gear if you dont join a raid.

  8. May 18, 2020  
    Don't get hit by yeti when he charge! then prceed to 4 people dying by 1 hit, and no hunter use tranq shot.
    Don't use aoe on faction champions! then every warrior in the raid spam cleave and whirwind, breaking the polymorphs and fear.
    Don't stack orbs on toravon! then half of the mdps die cuz they never heard they can actually move.
    Don't dispell on Halion, let the guy who in-charge of it do it! then someone self dispell in the middle of the group, blaming the warlock who has a fel guard.
    Edited: May 18, 2020

  9. May 24, 2020  
    This one time- I wanted to que for higher level dungeon and (on the dungeon finder) it said I was locked out because "item level not high enough" someone told me that even if you wear plate and you replace an item on your character with anything that has a higher iLevel like a grey/white or even a caster item (it doesnt matter what as long as the iLevel is higher)- it can increase your average item level. So I bought a crappy thing from a vendor and equipped it so I could queue and then after i got in the dungeon- i put my normal item back on. :)
    Moral of the story- if you replace your lowest ilevel things with crappy (but higher iLevel) gear- that can raise your GS to 5k so you can get an invite. Then put your real gear back on when the raid starts. ;)

    -----------
    BTW- After I "scammed" my way into the higher tier dungeon, I got some upgrades from that first dungeon that raised my iLevel enough so I didnt need to fake my way into the ques again.

  10. May 24, 2020  
    Well, I saw a DK do this on VoA25, and then pulling less dps than both tanks.
    We found out only when someone asked if we have 3 tanks when looking at the dps chart after a wipe (too many below 5k dps, and too many people ignoring orbs)

  11. May 25, 2020  
    Once in Voa25 I called out that too many ppl including myself were doing way to low dps for us to down toravon, so I left the raid so they could replace me with someone better since I didnt feel like it was fair to get carried when the raid was struggling.

  12. May 25, 2020  
    Since VOA is really short and easy raid, usually most leaders don't care enough to check people gear/ach, so lot of wipes happen when a raid has too many people that either lie to get carried, or ignore orbs. Too many times I had more dps on orbs as assassin rogue than most of the rdps in the raid.

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