Question regarding ninja rules (warmane vs retail)

[Obnoxious]

From the thread describing how to report ninja:

"If you have been victim of a NINJA in raid please send the following information via IN-GAME ticket:

Name of the ninja
Date of the incident
Screenshot(s)1*
Screenshot(s)2**
Screenshot(s)3***
Screenshot(s)4****
Brief explanation

Screenshots have to be unedited.
Recorded evidence is optional but will be heavily considered over screenshots evidence.

* Screenshot containing explaination of looting rules (and if any item is reserved). If it wasn't mentioned you should consider asking for it within the raid/group, before it begins.
Examples of clear looting rules:
"LF2M DPS and Healer Icecrown Citadel 25. All tier tokens reserved for guild, everything else will be distributed via rolling"
"Organising VOA raid, all items to be rolled for. Nothing reserved"
"LFM Trial of the Crusader. All loot will be distributed via rolling"

** Screenshot showing raid composition (full raid group window) at the start of raid.
** Any changes of Master Looter should be documented too to further improve the evidence.
Should Raid leader change person with Master Loot he has to ensure that new ML knows how loot is distributed.

*** Screenshot showing all rolls for an item (preferably in a big chat window) starting when item roll is called for.
*** Or screenshot showing player changing looting rules during the raid.

**** Screenshot showing player taking item for himself/giving it to player who did not win roll. Raid window showing raid leader and ML should be opened as well, alternatively if person left raid after ninja a message showing him leaving raid."

Did you have all of those or just some back and forth that, as you got for reply, don't show what happened clearly enough?

[helltrix]

Did you have all of those or just some back and forth that, as you got for reply, don't show what happened clearly enough?

Yes, I've read all of that. What I have are more screenshots of the enha saying he has the legs and the raid leader apologizing to me that he fcked up and the others laughing that the raid leader fcked up the loot, making it very obvious what happened.

It doesn't matter though, does it? Since there are no screenshots of loot rules explained in a pub VoA run, what if the loot rules stated that the lowest roll wins? It's not clear enough.

[Obnoxious]

Yes, I've read all of that. What I have are more screenshots of the enha saying he has the legs and the raid leader apologizing to me that he fcked up and the others laughing that the raid leader fcked up the loot, making it very obvious what happened.

It doesn't matter though, does it? Since there are no screenshots of loot rules explained in a pub VoA run, what if the loot rules stated that the lowest roll wins? It's not clear enough.

Indeed, without the minimum screenshots, it doesn't matter. So, it seems you were lured into a false sense of security created by yourself, assuming that what's explicitly required as minimum would be swayed because of some screens showing chat. Interestingly, this serves as a good example of how GMs don't just dish out bans with anything provided as evidence, like some try to claim.

[Kovachut]

Spoiler: Show

It kind of seems that you want to believe that retail had as much of a ninja problem as warmane does. I'll assure you that wasn't the case in my experience on multiple realms and factions during the time.

I'd also like to point out that RDF didn't exist until 3.3.0 (when ICC came out). In order to gear characters, or do daily heroic quests, you had to form groups yourself; typically that meant making friends with people and running with guildies. In addition, current-tier raids were seldom cleared by PuGs, meaning being in a guild was much more important during retail than it is now. I'll reiterate what I said earlier, being a ninja or toxic in groups when you're the odd man out was a quick way to get you blacklisted by a guild and any other guild they're friends with. That was significant because most realms only had about 10 or so guilds per faction full-clearing normal content, and less than half of those were doing significant hard modes or heroics.

There are also other things to consider when you're speculating about the 'chaos' that went on during retail:
Servers were broken up by region, meaning you were extremely unlikely to be playing with people that didn't speak the same language as you. With no language barriers, it was easier to communicate what items people were searching for and what loot rules were. Speaking of loot rules, when RDF came out, it was automatically set to Need Before Greed loot, which unlike the previous poster said, actually came out in patch 1.9 https://www.engadget.com/2009-12-08-...de-page-2.html

Furthermore, blizzard never officially released server population / cap during wotlk, only total players per region. If you do the math (just for NA), it averages to about 10k accounts in total to each realm. If you omit the fact that outliers would exist (realms with 15k+ or <3k accounts on it) and just consider the average of TOTAL accounts is 2k less than warmane claims to have on at any given time, you might understand that there was a larger feeling of community on retail. You didn't have to organize a bulletin board and realm government to blacklist toxic people and ninjas, word just made its way around because pretty much everyone knew everyone.

Lastly, as far as your philosophical standpoint goes, there was a point in time where humanity didn't have "general laws to unite its citizens." It's called the stone age.

Sorry for the late reply, I don't come here often.

Since I haven't played WoW on retail, I didn't have a clear picture of the ninja problem there. So I wanted to hear out the impression of the warmane users, who had played there. And since not all went through the same experience, I leant to the logical conclusion - that the community couldn't regulate itself w/o an external influence or rules, if there are too many people to handle. Personally, if I see flaws or loopholes in a certain area, I expect people to exploit them. But if you insist, that the population in the different realms wasn't that high enough, so people could remember troublesome fellows and share that information with others, that there was a "larger feeling of community", then I won't try to dispute that statement, since I'm not a first-hand witness.

Regarding your last paragraph - I used that philosophical excursus just to describe how people would normally look after their own personal interest, if there aren't any general rules for them to follow. Regarding the Stone Age argument - I am not a historian, so I lack the proper scientific vocabulary to express my thoughts well, but to my knowledge from times immemorial humans always preferred to live in groups, because that meant higher chances of survival. For that reason they formed tribes, someone had to lead those tribes, so a hierarchy and thus an internal order were established. This concerned the survivability of some individuals, so such connections were deemed necessary. In the game, however, things aren't that serious - if the game matches complete strangers in a dungeon, who haven't agreed to follow the same loot "needing" etiquette, what are the chances of them acting conscientiously when it comes to distributing the loot, especially if there aren't any serious punishments? That was my main argument in the previous post. But, I will say it again - if there was indeed a serious punishment in retail, i.e. being framed, then cast away from end-game guilds and not being able to clear the rest of the content, then my argument is refuted.