Dkp system is cancer - change my mind

[julhho5]

So, I have been playing on warmane since it was called Molten, and I'm very displeased to see what the guild's have become.

There is not a single guild that doesn't use the DKP system, which in case that you don't know what it is, it's a system that ''rewards'' guild memebers with points for doing raids with other guild members, which can be used to ''bet'' and gain items during the run.

For example:
Jhon, is a veteran, he's been playing since the WoW LK Retail, and he just joined a guild with the DKP system, and he is on his first run with them. After defeating all bosses, Jhon is rewarded with several points and now it's time to bet on the items. First item is one that he needs, so he will bet all of his 300 points on it, so he whispers the raid leader, ''300''. After a few seconds the bet ends, and the raid leader announces the winner, a guild officer who bet 302 points. Another item comes by, a glove that he was farming for a very long time, so he bets all of his 300 points again, and so the raid leader announces the winner, an old guild member who bet 305 points.

Now, from just this example we can already see many problems with the DKP system.

It's used on the premise of rewarding good guild memebers, that the more you raid, the more items you will get, but the problem is, if you are a new player, you will never be able to bet agaisnt an older guild member, plus, if you don't raid enough, you will never be able to compete with those who don't have a job/school or life and play WoW 24/7. It foces you to play with the guild, making WoW kinda feel like a job instead of a game.

Another problem that comes with it it's corruption. Let me ask you, what is the best part of rolling a dice? It is unbiased, it's pure luck. Officers and Guild Leaders and are not always so nice as you think they are, the raid leader (which will always be a officer or a guild leader) can basically cheat and tell one of his friends how much he should bet in order to secure the win.

And if that wasn't enough, other guild members can see how much you can bet, so can they basically put just +1,+2 points and secure an easy win, leaving you with nothing.

And it gets even worse, did you ever hear about inflation? Yeah, it can happen on DKP system as well, I have seen some guilds who don't have a maximum ammount which let some player get ridiculous amounts, allowing them to monopolise a whole run.

To summarise, the DKP system is a broken mess that only rewards old members and feeds on the new players and should be considered to be a scam by now, nothing will be better the pure, unbiased, true luck with a one hundred sided dice.

CHANGE MY MIND.

[angrylol]

Your sample is some corrupt shady crap.

Usually DKP bids are public in raid chat, for everyone to see in real time and person who overbids wins.

There is also dkp decay systems, might want to join a guild like that.

It's very good compared to /roll, your efforts are rewarded, no luck involved. Of coarse someone who shows up every week, does a good job( no - dkp) will get the items. It's whole purpose is to reward players like that, instead of some dude who shows up once in a 3 weeks because "have a job/school or life", you think that entitles you to get items?

I guarantee you, playing with /roll there will be an item you will not be able to win for YEARS, every time some fresh bro comes and takes it on his second week.

Join a guild with /roll system, enjoy.

[Ikspalii]

So you have a person whos in a guild for a very long time, who raids everyday with them and gets that dkp and then you have yourself who joined 2 days ago has 500 dkp and you expect to be able to win same amount of items as person #1? Did earth change into something new, where new players in guild have advantage over old or what? What is this paralel universe?

[Crystalleia]

It's used on the premise of rewarding good guild memebers, that the more you raid, the more items you will get, but the problem is, if you are a new player, you will never be able to bet agaisnt an older guild member, plus, if you don't raid enough, you will never be able to compete with those who don't have a job/school or life and play WoW 24/7.

First, you must understand that a lot of effort goes into maintaining a raiding guild; foremost of which is having raids that consistently happen, which also reach certain progression thresholds. Because of this, a consistent, reliable core is the most important member segment of any guild. Many people only raid once in a while, meaning even if they're good, they won't necessarily be there when the guild needs them for a raid. Others may be newer to the game and don't know tactics that well, yet others soon get bored and quit the game, or leave for another higher-progression guild, and so on.

And so it makes sense that the reliable members get more guild contribution points (which is what DKP essentially is), otherwise, there's no real reason for anyone to actually tune into less-important raids (say, ToC 25 NM in a ICC HC progression guild), which may mean that those runs don't happen at all in the first place.

First item is one that he needs, so he will bet all of his 300 points on it, so he whispers the raid leader, ''300''.

Another problem that comes with it it's corruption. Let me ask you, what is the best part of rolling a dice? It is unbiased, it's pure luck. Officers and Guild Leaders and are not always so nice as you think they are, the raid leader (which will always be a officer or a guild leader) can basically cheat and tell one of his friends how much he should bet in order to secure the win.

And if that wasn't enough, other guild members can see how much you can bet, so can they basically put just +1,+2 points and secure an easy win, leaving you with nothing.

Secondly, it's not *betting*, it's *bidding*, and bids are done publicly, in the raid chat. I don't know what kind of guild you got into, but it's got to be a terribly bad guild if they do bids via whispers and don't allow you to outbid the other players (assuming you do have the DKP).

While yes, corruption can happen anywhere, DKP is much better for static servers like Icecrown than, say, Loot Council (now that one's only suitable for serious progression scenarios if you ask me)

Plus, if you really want to /roll, you can always go for a PuG raid or something, or even host your own raid -- that way you can even reserve items and so on if you so wish. But as far as guilds go, DKP is a nice balance between fairness and rewarding player effort, imho.

[Skuddy]

have always hated the self made/self enforced looting rules. it's a big reason why i never got into serious raiding, almost impossible to find a guild that doesn't use the damn things. how many raids you've attended with said guild shouldn't give you a looting advantage. if an item drops those that need it should simply be rolling need, and if you win you win. if not better luck next time.

[OhieMitzen]

DKP cap with decay will prevent those crazy bids and DKP hoarders.

You get DKP based on your performance and time invested. Sure, you may not reach the DKP amounts some people have, as they've been raiding longer with the guild. And obviously should have some benefit for that. Even though they have a lot of DKP, they also have very few, if any, gear to get. This means while they have the DKP, they might not need those ICC gears that drops every week.

You say rolling is unbiased, sure. It's also really annoying when you've been clearing LoD for several months on a character with no luck on Sindragosa loot. When the item you're after finally drops, some random "pleb" who joined yesterday, rolls higher than you, gets the item. After few raids he goes inactive, and leaves guild after few weeks. Are you crying for your hard earned loot then?

Also, having a lot of DKP doesn't mean they're gonna spend it. There are those players who raid, have fun and gets some loot on the side. They might bid for some items, but they're not going hard at it, passing loot to others. While others who are obsessed with game pixels will go hard at any item they still need.

You seem to forget that DKP system is a system. It's used by players, and you should know that while DKP system might seem harsh, the people using it aren't, they are the ones with hearts and souls.

[Valestia]

I don't see a problem with an earner's benefit system. What you're all describing is commitment given vs new player who desires to gear. Why shouldn't you put in the same amount of work as the other guys? because they've already done it? that's not how life works. You give before you take, no matter how long it takes.

My only suggestion would be to cap it. This way you can't hoard benefits and keep a monopoly. Otherwise, this is one of the fairest systems i've seen in years. Of course, lazy and anxious people will disagree. They're called communists :D

[Marazhu]

They're called communists :D

OP complains because he wants instant gratification. It says a lot about society.
I personally want a guild that uses such system because with hardwork you can gear your character relatively faster than say... waiting weeks for a gear that drops to eventually lose it


GOD some people twists my gonads at the wrong direction

[julhho5]

I see that everyone is using the same argument, so, by your point of view, if a fury warrior, who is an old guild member, does half of DPS than another fury warrior, who is a new member, the old member deserves to have all the loot just because?

I find it amusing that people turn a blind eye on the problems just to maintain their advantage. Of course you will defend the system as long it favors you.

[Obnoxious]

It has nothing to do with "instant gratification," just with equal treatment. Guilds already have (or at least should) probation times to make sure someone is a decent player, who either knows what to do or shows they can learn, and who's interested in sticking around. If your guild keeps accepting unreliable people who leave soon as full members, the issue isn't with them. Past the point someone is accepted as a full member there's no valid reason for them to be "less deserving" of loot than any other full member, it's just favoritism.

DKP is nothing but a pyramid scheme. People "one layer higher" (ie., those around for longer in the scheme) leech the effort of the ones on "lower layers" by being assured they can spend more "twinkle points" to get something the new full members put in the same effort in a raid to find. The system is built on the fact the new full members will become "one layer higher" than the next bunch of newcomers and leech on them, paying less mind when a "higher layer" leeches again.

[Fiutolog]

Also experienced favoritism in guilds, no matter of efforts, many guilds are with ugly people that love pixels too much.
I decided to grind & resell for coins, its a bit slower process, but 100% gaurantee that u will get your gear eventually ;)
Good side of this method that It's less stressful, cause you don't have to deal with toxic people.

[Marazhu]

I see that everyone is using the same argument, so, by your point of view, if a fury warrior, who is an old guild member, does half of DPS than another fury warrior, who is a new member, the old member deserves to have all the loot just because?

I find it amusing that people turn a blind eye on the problems just to maintain their advantage. Of course you will defend the system as long it favors you.

Then pug it yourself and watch month go by with higher chance of not progressing gear wise

Or you can join the grind, do icc 10s to help newbies, hoard DKP

Suck it up or leave the guild. Watch as you lose your patience with pugging

[Mnggal]

then go join a corrupt loot council guild-

[julhho5]

If you don't have a good argument don't bother your self trying to be offensive. You are wasting your time.

Also, for those that wish a good guild witthout DKP system should send a msg to me, I will give you the invite ^^.

[OhieMitzen]

I see that everyone is using the same argument, so, by your point of view, if a fury warrior, who is an old guild member, does half of DPS than another fury warrior, who is a new member, the old member deserves to have all the loot just because?

I find it amusing that people turn a blind eye on the problems just to maintain their advantage. Of course you will defend the system as long it favors you.

I see that everyone is using the same argument, so, by your point of view, if a fury warrior, who is a new member, does half of DPS than another fury warrior, who is an old member, the new member deserves to have all the loot just because he won a roll?

All systems have flaws. DKP can be seen as favoritism towards long time loyal members over new ones. Loot councils are easily corrupted, and favorites will always have higher prio. Not to mention you can always throw gold for some extra credit. Even RNG can be unfair, I had really long time when I saw majestic amounts of loot dropping, but my rolls were low ****s below 40's 80% of the time. When ever I got a good roll, it was for OS, or beaten with higher roll.

I personally prefer well balanced DKP system, it tends to drive people to raid and have level of commitment. It may not be something everybody likes, but I like the transparency over loot council, and rolling for loot shouldn't be a thing in guilds.