It's mindblowing how some people in this thread fail to see the connection between a guild environment and a healthy work environment. Obviously it's not the exact same, but that's completely missing the point people are making here. Hard to believe these guys have ever worked a day in their lifes.
The only argument those dice rollers come up with is basically 'dice gud, luck very fair! DKP bad! DKP rewarding time and effort very bad! ooga booga!'
Several people have given multiple reasons as to why DKP is the much better system to work with in a proper guild, but some people are too stubborn to accept that they are in the wrong, no matter what you're saying or how many valid points you're making.
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Member
Edited: September 24, 2020
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Member
This whole discussion reminds me of one I've witnessed some time ago, where 1000 people tried to persuade 2 flat earthers, or to atleast consider that earth is indeed round, guess what, THEY ALL FAILED, BECAUSE THEY ALL WERE WRONG... You cannot persuade someone who are not willing to listen or look at the things from different point of view.
Now, I can understand that some people prefer their progression in game based on pure RNG, I really do, since I'm a fulltime BDO player myself, where the gear progression is based solely on RNG and nothing else. And it actually works really great, because the game was designed that way and intended to work like a lottery, where you gamble with your hundreds or even thousands of hours of endless grind, that part gives some individuals the feeling of total exhilaration which is the main aspect of the mentioned game.
But LUCK is nowhere close to being fair. Not atleast in the world we live in, nor in the game where progression rely only on a cooperation of 10-25 people to clear out the raids. People want to be rewarded according to their efforts and energy spent in raids, and it's only natural for us that way, that's why the DKP system was created, to eliminate randomly distributed loot. Someone came with argument that with rolling a dice, everyone would eventually land their hands on their desired BIS items and he/she is right, but that applies only to perfect conditions where the same group of same 25 people will gather each week for few months to clear out ICC until all 25 people are BIS geared, which frankly is not that easy to achieve, some people wont have a time, some people are already fully geared and have no reason to keep clearing the raid, etc. And that's the part where DKP system plays its role, to eliminate the aspect of someone new/random snatching your heroic DBW trinket when it finally drops and then you wont hear of him ever again... "But he invested the time into 2 hour clear as you did, and that's why he should have the chance of getting the item based on rolling a dice" - and how does that reflect with your 3 months of an ICC grind and still not getting the item ? Also that could have been only his second run as far as you know. How's that fair towards your effort ? And this can keep going for even a year if you would keep getting into raid runs with rolling a dice loot system. This is exactly the reason why vast majority of players prefer DKP system over a ****ing randomly generated numbers, sure DKP system is not flawless, but it's for sure way more appealing than rolling a dice... And it's not even that hard for new players in guild with DKP to land their hands on their BIS items, I'm talking from my personal experience, being a newbie in a guild with DKP system, all you have to do is to attend for 2-3 weeks to help them clear out ICC and then you have enough points to get atleast 1-2 items of your need.
All in all, it comes down to your own preference, if a /roll system is fair in your eyes in long term progression, then be my guest and keep doing PUG runs(because you don't deserve any better), and because there is no serious guild which would even consider rolling loot system over DKP system, and for a good reason.Edited: September 24, 2020
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Member
So , as experiment I joined a guild with dkp system in last week on wednesday , that day i was on raid with them and i was rewarded with DKP (thats only thing i got from that raid) , yesterday I was on second raid with that guild and i was able to bid for BIS item for my class and I WON IT !!
So in conclusion everyone who is crying here about that dkp isnt fair and how it is discriminate new members its NOT TRUE AT ALL .. for everyone who is crying here GET REAL , GROW UP and start playing (I spent in wow 6 hours per this week only for these two raids and for VOA ) .. I am really getting sick of how many people are just lazy and dont get basic principals.
CHEERS babies...
To admins : dont know why you defend these people they need to know and if it not working with polite argument which i wrote and only thing I get as reply is "it doesnt matter how you defend DKP its 100 percent crap" is argument with 0 value. It must be done with hard way...Edited: September 24, 2020
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Moderator
You don't have a sliver of a clue of what being polite is if you really believe your previous one could be called that without full blown irony. Even this last one (and others) isn't polite, it just isn't as bad as the removed one.
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Member
Listen I ve never said that post which I wrote was polite , it wasnt I agree , of course even that one isnt .. I am working with people every day , and it is in my best interest to be polite because of people which I meet , they pay me for jobs which I do ... but I have rule that I am polite for first time , for second time but for third time , I am not because they are not worth of my time and I dont want to cooperate with them anymore even if they wants pay more .. its just not worth of my nerve and time ... its like your system with strikes on forum , implemented in business... its just my rule which makes my life better because you dont want to be surrounded by people which are negative and dont accept real arguments and they have to say one thing over and over again even if you express your arguments and they just reply with same thing like before .. thats not even a conversion , simply best thing is to leave them ... but i was so stupid that I ve to prove them , they are wrong.. Now I know it was a mistake and I will not waste my time in future to try prove something to people which will argue with same thing like before, they act like they didnt even see a prove which I make.
I wrote two posts , yes with few things that I would maybe argue if that was polite .. but this is not making any profit for me so I just wanted to express my opinion how I dont get how some people thinks and how it can affect their real live if they would be a little more open minded...Edited: September 24, 2020
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Forum Veteran
I tried "for fun" to gear up my fury warrior in pug raids, I said to myself if I ever got bis this way i'm going to donate for shadowmourne, took me 2 years. I don't regret anything.
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Member
Yes , thats right you invest your time (a lot of time I would say) and put effort in game to get to this state where are you now ... but there are people who dont want to put their time and effort in game and wants items for free..
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Forum Veteran
it still takes time and effort to get raids done and get loot using a roll system. the difference is everyone gets a fair chance at the loot. the longer you stay and more raids you do the higher chance you have of winning a roll. ya'll just like dkp because it guarantees you loot after so long. it can be far more work and time consuming getting your loot on a /roll than it is with dkp. but everyone will stick to dkp cause you want the odds stacked in your favor, rather than having the same chances as everyone else.
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Forum Veteran
So switch to DKP, if it's faster? lololol
I like to know that the time I've invested into raiding will eventually pay off. I also know that somebody who has invested a lot less, if at all, won't take something away from me, or anybody else, just because they are luckier than me. And you see this happening a lot in PUG's where the "carried" people rolls the highest and a lot of people start crying how the winner didn't deserve it.
Since the roll enthusiasts won't ever accept IRL comparisons of investing, or any for that matter, I'm not gonna bother explaining it any further to these gold (read: loot) diggers.
Loots aside, DKP system encourages activity over randomly appearing/disappearing. If activity is something you can't get into, for IRL reasons, you should talk with your GM and work things out. If you can't do that, you should be happy with what you can do, when you can, whether it's PUG or guild raid.
There were times when I only ran with PUG's, because there were no matching guild raiding times to match my IRL schedule. There were a lot of people who had lost the plot, had no clue, slacked all the way through the raids. Where the mentality is "If I don't do it, nobody else will; I should do it, as nobody else seems to know how", and you've certainly ran into PUG or two, which were like that. Every single raid I wished I'd be in guild where DKP is used, knowing none of the awful players would ever get loot. Which isn't always the main point, sometimes you just want good and enjoyable raids.
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Member
Probably the most underrated reason for DKP. So many spammers begging for members to join their raids.
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Forum Veteran
I don't raid, so i don't use either. but if i ever did get back into wow i'd never go near a guild that uses dkp, o epgp or any other made up form of looting.
and you don't need dkp to encourage people to show up. if they want the loot they'll show.
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Member
That's not how probability works, sorry. You have exactly the same chance everytime be it first raid or milionth.
Unless you mean situation where the raid composition is exactly the same every raid and less and less people roll for the items. Then yes, but that's very unlikely because there are usually newcomers and/or new alts of the guild members thus number of people rolling for the items is +- the same.
And no, luck is not fair. Luck is unbiased. That's important difference.Edited: September 25, 2020
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Forum Veteran
if you do something 100 times you have a better chance of getting it than you do if you only do it once. being unbiased and random is what i consider fair for looting.
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Member
Wrong.
When you do 1 raid, and you got 15% chance of winning an item by roll, your probability of winning is 15%.
When you do 10 raids, each one with 15% chance of winning, your probability of having won that item within those is 80,32%.
Statistically, the more raids you do, the more chances you have, up to almost 100% with enough raids. It's cumulative. Skuddy is right.
As I said earlier, folks here against /roll have no idea how statistics and probability work, so it's a lost cause argoument.Edited: September 25, 2020
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Member
I feel like this thread has gone off the rails from its original intent, someone being in a guild with a DKP system, and that system being abused to the user's detriment:
The easy answer is for the user to leave said guild for greener pastures, case in point that all DKP bids should be made apparent and not in whisper for transparency. This however did not happen for this person and this whole thread devolved into the merits of what is more morally subtitle for item distribution being DKP loot system or RNG rolls.
All things being equal, DKP will distribute items accordingly based on contribution when applied correctly. With that said, the DKP system is not always applied correctly and is open to more abuse on private servers than it is on retail. To remove the human element, one which is inherently flawed, id rather roll.
