1. LOOTING RULERS ! I have some questions

    So recently I was banned. Aparently I dont know the rules of looting items.

    RS25N - Umbrage Armbands - I Refused FDK/Hunter to be winner of this item.
    Instead awarded to a rogue. Now I am banned. Aparently it is wrong?

    Can someone forward me an official Warmane looting link?

    So I Can learn the rule about : LEATHER/MAIL Items on Plater characters ?

    https://imgur.com/a/6py4k9N - RS25 This week.
    https://imgur.com/a/Kugzoh4 2ND Raid - HERE WE HAVE FDK Wanting Umbrage.

    **LOOTING RULES > Title is misspelled
    Edited: October 1, 2020

  2. If you don't specify any rules at the start of the raid, anybody that benefits from an item can roll on it. So, for example, if DFO drops and you give it to an afflication instead of a fire mage that rolled more you risk getting banned. I don't agree with it either but these are the "default" rules.

    Just do a raid warning with some brief rules, something in the lines of "Class priority on items, I reserve the right to give the item to somebody else if I feel your class doesn't need it. Feel free to leave the raid if you don't agree with this", do a print screen and you won't have problems in the future.

  3. Do a ban appeal. There are some nonwritten rules that most can agree, which includes some leather pieces. But wrist from rs is a big nono to hunter at least and while not being sure, its not for fdk aswell, at least not the normal version. Some warriors are getting umbra hc at BiS, but not before that.

    GM prolly only checked the rolls and didnt check which item was rolled. So, make a ban appeal and explain the situation.

    PS: If this was ok since it can be an upgrade, we should see shield users are rolling bpc offhands.
    Edited: September 30, 2020

  4. If you don't specify any rules at the start of the raid, anybody that benefits from an item can roll on it. So, for example, if DFO drops and you give it to an afflication instead of a fire mage that rolled more you risk getting banned. I don't agree with it either but these are the "default" rules.

    Just do a raid warning with some brief rules, something in the lines of "Class priority on items, I reserve the right to give the item to somebody else if I feel your class doesn't need it. Feel free to leave the raid if you don't agree with this", do a print screen and you won't have problems in the future.
    Sprotess , Offcourse warlock can use DFO.
    But giving DFO to a healer , becouse of spell benefit would not be OK.

  5. Do a ban appeal. There are some nonwritten rules that most can agree, which includes some leather pieces. But wrist from rs is a big nono to hunter at least and while not being sure, its not for fdk aswell, at least not the normal version. Some warriors are getting umbra hc at BiS, but not before that.

    GM prolly only checked the rolls and didnt check which item was rolled. So, make a ban appeal and explain the situation.

    PS: If this was ok since it can be an upgrade, we should see shield users are rolling bpc offhands.

    Yes exactly , it is not OK. Becouse shield users will get it from marrowgar ! And I agree that Tosk is for platers also ! But umbrage? Didnt know this.

    What is even more funny, if i have given it to DK, then rogue can report me that i ninja him. So basicaly I cant host a raid becouse i will get ban 100%.

  6. And we have a dilema once again. Just like DBW being awarded to certain classes.

    I do admire that Warmane wanted to make this server lawful with all these ninja rules, but the more Im looking at forum posts, the more I think it just complicated problems rather than solved them. In the end, there are still too many <debatable> cases when fault is questionable and depends on personal view of the "judge".

    Was is BiS for hunter? No. Was it upgrade for him? Yea. So why shouldn't he need for it?

  7. Was is BiS for hunter? No. Was it upgrade for him? Yea. So why shouldn't he need for it?
    Jingiqt has Gunship 25 Wrists which are infact BiS for hunters so no it's not a uppgrade fom him, infact he should be the one banned not the leader in this case.

  8. "What qualifies as ninja?

    - Master Looter taking items that were not reserved or giving them to players that did not win, unless it's 2nd highest roll when winner had no use for the item (rogue rolling on caster trinket).
    - Changing looting rules during the raid, after it has started.
    Example: You joined a raid that was being advertised as one with no reserved items and after first boss raid leader says that he reserves item x from last boss.
    - Player exploiting game bug to bypass master loot. In such cases it is best if master looter would fill report that shows player leaving the raid and empty loot window.
    - Player need rolling (group loot) on items which he cannot even use.
    - In RDF needing on items for OS (unless everyone in party is explictly fine with this).
    - Need rolling for other players to have 2 or more roll chances at one item.
    - Kicking players from raid for no reason, especially before distributing loot from boss kill that they participated in."

    There's nothing about what is or isn't an upgrade in the rules. As Sprotess said in the very first reply, anybody eligible to roll can do it and expect to receive it if they win, unless you create rules dictating otherwise. "I reserve the right to give the item to somebody else if I feel your class doesn't need it" might not cut it and people likely will want it much better definied and specified if they are after some item in particular and don't want to waste time just to find out you use your "right" to shaft them.

  9. "What qualifies as ninja?

    - Master Looter taking items that were not reserved or giving them to players that did not win, unless it's 2nd highest roll when winner had no use for the item (rogue rolling on caster trinket).
    - Changing looting rules during the raid, after it has started.
    Example: You joined a raid that was being advertised as one with no reserved items and after first boss raid leader says that he reserves item x from last boss.
    - Player exploiting game bug to bypass master loot. In such cases it is best if master looter would fill report that shows player leaving the raid and empty loot window.
    - Player need rolling (group loot) on items which he cannot even use.
    - In RDF needing on items for OS (unless everyone in party is explictly fine with this).
    - Need rolling for other players to have 2 or more roll chances at one item.
    - Kicking players from raid for no reason, especially before distributing loot from boss kill that they participated in."

    There's nothing about what is or isn't an upgrade in the rules. As Sprotess said in the very first reply, anybody eligible to roll can do it and expect to receive it if they win, unless you create rules dictating otherwise. "I reserve the right to give the item to somebody else if I feel your class doesn't need it" might not cut it and people likely will want it much better definied and specified if they are after some item in particular and don't want to waste time just to find out you use your "right" to shaft them.


    I agree with this completely. Attempting to trick people im sneaky ways is a "d*** move".
    This is not the case here however.

    The problem being Frost Death Knight eligability for Umbrage Armbands.
    https://wotlkdb.com/?item=54580

    In several years, I have never seen FDK rolling this item. Or any FDK that uses this item.
    In original bis list, it is not listed for any plater. But I would respect it for a lot of plater on Warmane becouse it is often done so.

  10. The wrists are for Retribution paladins, Unholy DK's, Assasination Rogues and maybe Feral druids idk, Frost DK's can build 2 ways, STR or ARP, if you go ARP Frost DK you get the leather items with ARP bonus in them only and agility items only really reach their full potential for DK when they have a ton of STR allready, In this case the item would be considered as offspecc for the DK hence the bann should be unfair.

    Hunters in general NEVER go leather since 100% of their INT converts to AP in talents, Leather with AP dont have INT, Mail does, Not to mention about the lesser manapool resulting in ooming much faster, Leather should only go to hunters if no one else needs it.

  11. The wrists are for Retribution paladins, Unholy DK's, Assasination Rogues and maybe Feral druids idk, Frost DK's can build 2 ways, STR or ARP, if you go ARP Frost DK you get the leather items with ARP bonus in them only and agility items only really reach their full potential for DK when they have a ton of STR allready, In this case the item would be considered as offspecc for the DK hence the bann should be unfair.
    I agree with this, but sadly rules disagree here:

    Read the ninja rules.
    There's nothing about "what's better for whom" there. GMs in some instances may consider a case an exception, as noted in the same rules, but it isn't somemething I'd rely on. It's for the GMs to consider it an exception, not for players to badger them into making something so (or the other way around).
    Taken from WotLK Banned, I dont know why.

    There's nothing about what is or isn't an upgrade in the rules. As Sprotess said in the very first reply, anybody eligible to roll can do it and expect to receive it if they win, unless you create rules dictating otherwise. "I reserve the right to give the item to somebody else if I feel your class doesn't need it" might not cut it and people likely will want it much better definied and specified if they are after some item in particular and don't want to waste time just to find out you use your "right" to shaft them.
    So, if you want to build Agi+Haste+Crit Leather DK in a PUG, you can. Just find a PUG that only states their usual MS > OS, BoE SFS DBW RES runs. If they don't say you can't roll for agi+haste+crit blood DK, you can go report their ***, if they deny you the loot after you won it. If they argue against it, link them this, or the other one I linked above.
    Starting to think fine-tuning ninja rules might be something we all could consider.

    Seems it's best to join guild raids only.
    Edited: September 30, 2020

  12. I guess the concept of "any eligible roll is allowed, unless against the run's rules" can really be too complicated and incomprehensible for some, to the point of making them only join guild raids, sure.

    As the rule covering this states, GMs are not meant to be a shield against ninja, to the point players can just go on cruise control and then complain when something doesn't go their preferred way. They are strict and simplified, probably for the sake of GMs not having to analyze and make special judgement on each and every case, balancing all sorts of claims of "this isn't good for X," "that is better for Y" or even "Z barely helped and doesn't deserve it."

  13. I guess the concept of "any eligible roll is allowed, unless against the run's rules" can really be too complicated and incomprehensible for some, to the point of making them only join guild raids, sure.

    As the rule covering this states, GMs are not meant to be a shield against ninja, to the point players can just go on cruise control and then complain when something doesn't go their preferred way. They are strict and simplified, probably for the sake of GMs not having to analyze and make special judgement on each and every case, balancing all sorts of claims of "this isn't good for X," "that is better for Y" or even "Z barely helped and doesn't deserve it."


    Well thanks for clarifying this. I had no idea that I can join a raid with my DK. And roll on all items that give mele stats.
    I think all Pugers will agree with me, this is not the case in 100% raids.

    What is funny about this is that Raid Leaders, dont give the item which is NOT BIS. To a player, becouse we/they fear getting banned.
    (and now you say it is the opposite of that)
    And I was already banned 1 time, after wining Umbrage on UHDK, I was banned on the alegation that it is prio for rog/feral.
    So basicaly there is no fix rule, and GM can ban me for just about how his mood is that day ?



  14. So, if you want to build Agi+Haste+Crit Leather DK in a PUG, you can. Just find a PUG that only states their usual MS > OS, BoE SFS DBW RES runs. If they don't say you can't roll for agi+haste+crit blood DK, you can go report their ***, if they deny you the loot after you won it. If they argue against it, link them this, or the other one I linked above.
    Starting to think fine-tuning ninja rules might be something we all could consider.

    Seems it's best to join guild raids only.
    This is the extreme case of abusing the rule. Yes, it happens, and a lot of people you meet in pugs are greedy and just want every single piece of gear that drops, but the rule is in place mostly because the general population has no idea which class uses what gear. You quoted an example yourself where Disktrasa, who I remember saying in a different thread that he has 20 alts and has been raiding in end-game guilds for quite some time, doesn't know the exact classes that use Umbrage. It's not only rets/udks and assa's but also ferals (both cat and bear), warriors, 2set combat rogues and both ap and sp enha's (even sp enha's take it over bracers of fiery night).
    Now imagine trying to argue over item eligibility with somebody with less experience that's been playing on warmane only for a couple of months or has never raided any sort of end-game content . And this is 95% of the server's population.

    That's why specifying rules at the start of the raid is important. You either go with the flow and just let everybody roll on anything or you make sure you're clear about how you're going to distribute the items before the raid starts.

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