Should be reduced to an even lower number specifically for Wintergrasp. It uses up slots that regular players would've otherwise benefitted from. Good first step that I don't think goes far enough.
-
Member
-
Member
Should be set for 10 for WG imo. There's so many boxers now. During peak hours, there's at least 3 at horde, and if they all have 25 chars, that's 75/120 just occupied by 3 real players.
-
Member
Better to forbid PvP boxing :D
-
Member
Yeah, it's a shame I won't be able to finalize my 1000 toons anymore and have complete domination of the WPVP economy. Ah well, it will take a lot of the under skilled players who use more than 25 toons as a crutch for their poor skill and force them to actually play better. I wonder if lesser guilds will be forced to spend more gold on purchasing the help of multiple multiboxers now that they can't rely on just 1 boxer with only 25 toons to help them fend off other non-multiboxing guilds that have actual good and fully BiS players.
Who knows, but I like this change.
-
Member
I really, really thank the Staff for this decision.
25 is still better than 40-50+. Good compromise. Hopefully for the rest of the playerbase it will get to 0 in the future :)Edited: October 2, 2020
-
Member
Gearing up 25 man team to BIS can literally take years.
What's the guarantee this limit won't get suddenly lower next month/year? Why is 25 the specific number?
Why not allow 25 characters to be multiboxed and have 1 alt logged in as bank/social alt?
25 character limit would realistically mean 99% of boxers can only use 24 characters with 1 alt logged in as social/bank etc.
-
Legendary Weaponsmith
Yes,also this should count for battlegrounds too.For PVE and WPVP 25m is a good number i guess
-
Member
Day one of this in effect and I can already tell you .. if you're trying to solve the issue of your server not supporting many players online.. you are not salving anything..
there was more multiboxers online than i ever seen im months.
-
Member
I like the changes as well, in order to have a better server for us all with less lagg and everything..
just wish we would know this would be something in mind before we started to donate in 175+ accounts you know..
-
Member
True, true.
-
Member
Rules are always subject to change. It should have atleast come to your mind that this could happen one day. You made a voluntary choice of donating for those "175+ accounts", wich are still valid accounts.
Any staff member would have told you there would be "no garantees" if you had asked before donating.
-
Member
A welcome change. I personally multibox 10 characters and the only challenge that I encounter are other multiboxers with a higher character count.
WG, and World PvP in general, has been watered down to who is the bigger multiboxer, who has the most characters and thus most power/damage. So to set a standard across the board, you even out the playing field by having a “cap” on how much power one person can have in-game, so to speak. I like that. This is a positive change all around.
So, now that you rich oil princes who donated on 40+ accounts, BiS across the board, will be limited to 25 - mind sharing a few of your left over accounts that you can’t use anymore so I can boost my team from 10 to 15? <3
I promise to take good care of them!
Much love to all of you, multibox family. And much love to the staff for having integrity and maintaining a consistent and fair environment for all players, by implementing changes when needed and appropriate.
I know the decision wasn’t easy, and you knew you were in for a lot of backlash - but you stuck to your integrity. Much respect.
-
Member
Hello Warmane and fellow players,
I am both a large scale (40m) boxer and someone who's in the business world so I should be qualified to give insight on this topic.
Proterean and Staff-
My position is that you're validated in making (a) decision on this matter, however it's not necessarily optimal in it's current state and fortunately, I would still say you have time and latitude to consider feedback from the boxing community. If you don't mind investing a moment, I believe you'll find this to be worth a read.
As a multiboxer I have been both cheered and spat upon in-game, more times than anyone can imagine, in equal measure. We boxers have as many who love us as those who hate us. The hate Is mostly coming out of jealously, not our behavior. We play a positive role in the in-game economy as well as generating coin sales through sale of gold and obviously by buying items. Personally I buff most everyone I meet and help out when asked. All the multiboxers I associate with are even more helpful than myself. You run this business well, youve been successful, I'd say that you are doing a better job than blizzard ever did, post Wrath. I request that you please further consider the long term outcomes of further catering to small and vocal people of low quality no matter the subject. It did not lead to prosperity for blizzard. I'm in favor of you making fair and ethical rules and enforcing them with absolutely brutal consequences but I have one VERY important point in the following analysis.
To expand I have been pessimistic about the future of multiboxing here for a few months having seen all the new boxers of larger magnitude coming in because of the prevalence in more powerful chips and an increase in available knowledge in how to multibox. I liked it better when things were a bit more exclusive, so I actually welcome this change.
Important part: This is not a rebuke or anything of the like, I have a question for you. Will you refund victims of this decision? To preface my reasoning: I have only donated the minimum on a handful of my 40 accounts so far. I promised myself that I would learn how to play a team before sinking a bunch of real money into it, so I don't have a dog in the fight that I'm about to mention but this is the most important point I have to make. You run a business. Warmane is a business with a store. You have an obligation to your customers within your terms of service BUT even moreso you are obligated to do good business by the ethics of business whether or not they show up in your terms.
For instance, If you were in the business of selling software subscriptions and you made any change in your software that made the software that any portion of your customers purchased unusable, you'd need to refund those customers. If you didn't it would be nothing short of swindling. It would be just plain bad business. There are many products you could do this with and some of them in some countries would go so far as to get you locked away.
The bottom line is; If you sell anything to a customer and then unilaterally decide to remove their ability to benefit from the thing you sold them within a reasonable window of time, Inside terms that they've abided by, other than the arbitrary statement of "no refund", you owe them a refund. Under these circumstances if you do not give it, you are flat out, unequivocally unethecal. The key here is your unilateral decision. The refund should be in the form of the real life currency the person paid, refunded to the instrument they paid with and the reasonable terms of this refund should be something along the lines of; Player picks which accounts to keep and which to be liquidated. Those that get liquidated will be refunded the real currency that the customer paid in, within some reasonable window of time (e.g. within the past 120 days). The only customers who should be eligible for this type of real currency refund are those who, at no fault of their own, suffer from a unilateral decision to remove the product or service they purchased. You can't argue that the money is going to be kept becuase there's a "no refund" sentence in the terms or furthermore that the money was "donated". If it's a donation that you didn't expend resources soliciting then you shouldnt mind giving the funds back since you weren't trying to aquire the money in the first place. If you were trying to acquire the money in the first place then it is an outright sale and as such it should be subject to a real currency refund within a window of time due to your unilateral changes in policy. Again, I'm in business, I applaud you for what you've built, you have my respect for the job you've done. I love playing here but I want to hear what you have to say about this. I don't know how many potential customers this may affect (probably very few) but if I was one of them you'd be hearing from me. I don't believe that money or principle is of little enough consequence that you'd be willing to let it go at "Oh well, TOS said no refund so I'm just out of luck" if the roles we rereversed.
Thoughts:
One potential con: This rule will hurt the rule followers and benefit the rule breakers who will likely only break the rules infrequently enough to keep their full team and still be able to dominate in the ways you're trying to combat. You could hit closer to the mark of the perfect maximum team size and reduce the numbers of reports you need to sift through by making the limit 40 instead of 25. The level of dedication to go from 25 to 40 requires a large leap and is therefore a natural limitation. After you get 40 you realize that it's actually too many to be truly engaging and you don't stay there long because nobody fights you. It gets boring just doing wintergrasp with 40 (harder to win with larger teams). To go above 40 is truly pointless. You may run it for a couple weeks but you will get bored and scale back down to 40-. I have never encountered any of the bad apples you cited as reasons for this decision and I've only met 2 hotheads in the entire time I've been doing this and they were soundly punished. I get around in this game and I wouldve seen it by now if it was a systemic problem. I didn't plan to play 40 all the time anyway so I'm not arguing on my own behalf, but I think for the sake of others and the health of the important role that you cite multiboxing to be for the game, you might as a team, re-consider the limit.
In terms of enforcement, unless you make it clear that you'll ban all 40 accounts being run by that boxer rather than a random 15 over the limit, people are going to test you. Also, are you going directly to permanent ban with this or some finite length of suspension to start with? I suppose since you have no precedent in enforcing this you are still planning your implementation?
A final note regarding one reason why I started multiboxing. There's a truly toxic element in our midst. For a good while I tried to compete with people on this server on an even footing playing a single character. I even donated heavily on one character to the point I was essentially BiS. However, fighting the mechanic of ArP paired with certain weapons was a frequent and very difficult battle. I never complained about this, but the attitude of the people who I'd frequently encounter with these advantages left me believing that if these people had the opportunity to put real cigarettes out on their opponents they'd happily do so. Their boundless hubris and joy in ruining other peoples experiences left me convinced that they occasionally needed to meet a force they had no chance against just to check their rotten attitude. Perhaps enough of them, instead of receiving the attitude adjustment that would serve them well, have come crying to management to remove an obstacle which, at times, hampers their freedom in extinguishing cigarettes on their victims. I realize that these people are a very important part of Warmane's population but they are, person-for-person much worse for the general morale of the servers due to their toxic behavior as they are far more prevalent than multiboxers and seem to posess a childish hatred for everyone around them. In contrast to them, I've never met a multiboxer who camped a corpse, I don't know a single one of us who's under the age of 25 so I guess we tend to be more mature, if for no other reason than we're already past our angsty years. I love competition and challenge and that's exactly why I multibox. You don't just get into it and become proficient overnight. Fighting other boxers is very complicated and for anyone who sticks around in multiboxing, thats what they are focused on. I really have no idea who you're referring to in the reasoning for this change when it comes to the 100-200 player teams. Remember, I agree with your plan to limit, I just think perhaps 40 is a more sound limit. Pigeonlord seems to agree and if there's anyone who's word I'd take to the bank when it comes to multiboxing related matters it'd be him.
We multiboxers today of good repute all know of you. You're correct on hardware. I'm of the same mind as you that perhaps 40 should be considered the limit rather than 25. Over the year and a bit that Ive been boxing I've only met 2 hothead boxers, the rest of us are very helpful, sharing and honorable. We're not griefers, campers, gameplay disruptors.
Are you speaking about the rule announced in this thread being subject to change or some past rule that I'm not aware of which limited the size of multiboxing teams?
There's zero difference in letting 1 or 40 players complete the WG raid quests (you mean weekly I presume?) because the objectives are shared and the time to kill is basically the same. Most players can kill a normal mob in 2-3 seconds. The same number of mobs are required to complete the quest for a 40m raid as for a single player. The only challenge in Wintergrasp quests is from other players.
You are wrong that zero players would want multiboxing. This isn't a jab at you, but you would know this if you'd been a multiboxer yourself. We get equal parts love and hate. You are taking the liberty here to attempt to frame public opinion for the readers of this thread unless you really do believe this, in which case I'd ask you to re-consider your position. Perhaps zero players who are filing reports would want it and those are effectively the only people you hear from. In the case of products, good reviews are reported at a much lower rate than bad, even though the incidence of good experiences is almost always much higher.
-
Member
What are you even talking about?
First and foremost; Warmane is NOT a business. They do NOT run a store. This is made clear in the very terms you so claim to be understanding of. You refer to the players of Warmane as customers, simply because they have chosen to donate to the platform. They are NOT customers. The very same way you are not a customer of Twitch just because you donate to your favourite Twitch streamer via Paypal. The very same way you are NOT entitled to a refund of said money just because said Twitch streamer does not provide you with adequate incentive or reward. The very same way you are NOT entitled to a refund of said donation just because, further down the line, you no longer wish to support said Twitch streamer.
As you are a business man, as you so mentioned on a multitude of occasions, you should know the very definition of what a donation is, given that it's an intangible method of transfering money without any direct promise of product or performance of a sale. There is NO sale of any service or product, when you donate. On occasion, and often so, Warmane will provide "donors" with virtual coins which they can spend on a selection of virtual items. At no point is there a direct transaction occuring between donating and being given said virtual item(s) of choice.
If i donate to an organisation, and as an act of appreciation they, in turn, give me a badge or a sticker to commemorate my selfless act, that does NOT imply nor reflect the act of a sale. I donated to said organisation. They gave me a badge/sticker as a reflection of their appreciation for my donation. Nothing more.
To give you the official Cambridge Dictionary definition;
"A donation is something of value such as money or goods that is given to help a person or organization such as a charity, or the act of simply giving this money"
To clarify, I shall repeat, Warmane is NOT a business. Now that the donation aspect of your post is out of the way, on to your concept of what you believe to be "ethical" business practice. You can not tell me with genuine belief that you think anything about Warmane is "ethical". It's a private World of Warcraft server, making use of another companies intellectual property, to source for-profit self-funding in exchange for upkeep of the very servers you play on. You go on and on about what you think to be "ethical" business practise whilst playing on what is, by definition, an "illegal" server. And thus, using your own misguided terminology; you've invested in an illegal "business". You have made the conscious decision to play on a World of Warcraft private server, that is using the intellectual property of another company without notified or written consent nor permission, and you want to discuss "ethics"?
This, in and of itself, is clear indication that you knew fully well ahead of time, that you were DONATING to an organisation that has no concept of "ethics", and you, knowing that and still choosing to DONATE, are no longer in a position to make demands using "ethical" grounds.
To conclude, I'm not going to jerk myself off and talk about how all of this contextual knowledge is sourced from the very fact I happen to work in financial law, but just to be clear on the matter of Warmane, "business", and their financial position in this matter; you're wrong. And being a business man, you should know very well that you ought to leave the specifics of financial competency and understanding to those whose very job it is to deal with it; the lawyers.Edited: October 3, 2020
-
Member
Haha, if you actually think there's as many people supporting multiboxing as there is opposing it, you're either delusional or you're being purposefully disingenuous. If you were to make a poll on the general section of the forum or even on any of the realm forums, you'd quickly find out the hatred outweighs the "love" by a large margin.
