1. I judge as often as I can, even when I'm solo healing, which means that in this specific scenario, there is no one to back me up if I'm doing something terribly wrong.
    Lets get something straight right now. there is no "true" solo heal. There are always dps specd classes who off heal or have healing abilities built into their rotation.

    lets also check the full logs http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...Soul+Reaper%22

    how many times did u cast JoL during reaper exactly?

    again as i said above don't know why you are casting JoL anyways. Prot should def have prio over you casting it and so should rets if no prot is available or in raid. you should at least consider this as a revision in your guide since you did not answer it with your last reply. ill quote beanlord again.
    Here's the thing, you can give up jol duty to someone that does it in their rotation anyway and each time you would've otherwise judged and put yourself in a 1.5s GCD you can instead AA for a chance at 4% mana return from SoW. It is more optimal in terms of gameplay and is a point you cannot argue.
    again JoL is there to pad meters as it is more useful for other specs to use it vs you.
    even when I'm solo healing
    honestly then that needs to be a seperate guide or a seperate section in the guide. solo healing you are doing things and using things you would not normally use or do in a full proper/optimal set up. So lets not confuse the two.

    the problem is you say
    there is no RNG here, this comes with experience, knowing when to judge, without risking anything
    yet RNG is exactly what you are playing with and as the logs show it burned you (more than once) shatered i know you understand what im talking about and i know you must realize how flawed the above statement is. All im hoping for is that you correct some of the folowing statements and thoerycrafting in this guide such as:

    imp conc shoudlent be listed as an option
    imp LoH should be considered over other options in the spec
    JoL should NOT be used by you unless oyu are legit the only paladin in the raid and if so as i said before leave that raid
    PSP stat gains + the hit rating more useful than the crit from other legs
    you should NOT be judging 5-6 times per min
    RNG DOES exist with judge and its best to minimize it as much as you can without giving up too much in stats

    those are just my issues with the guide as some others have also called out these issues and more seems it would be wise of you to at least at minimum add their theorycrafting into the guide, give explainations they have provided here, and give both your opinion and the theorycrafted reasons on such topics. If there is one thing i have learned in my time here and on retail there is always someone who knows more than you, there is always room for improvement, and chances are you are not always right. no matter how skilled you are no matter how many personal achievements you or your guild has. Again i know you are better than 99% of warmane. I totally respect your solo heals. But yet again, you have glaring issues with what you said vs what is factual. I really do not want to keep replying to things in this guide that should i would imagine be common sense for a player of your caliber, no disrespect.
    Edited: October 12, 2020

  2. Lets get something straight right now. there is no "true" solo heal. There are always dps specd classes who off heal or have healing abilities built into their rotation.
    If you really want to frame it like that, then sure. But let's be real here, healing from things like Divine Storm are not significant. I'd understand if you were aiming directly at a Shadow Priest, but other sources... not so much. This sounds more like an argument from someone whose sole intent is to deny the other person's claim, not legitimate input.

    This sort of discussion doesn't benefit the guide at all, so it's probably for the best that you guys took the cockfighting to PM's instead of posting this garbage on here.

  3. If you really want to frame it like that, then sure. But let's be real here, healing from things like Divine Storm are not significant. I'd understand if you were aiming directly at a Shadow Priest, but other sources... not so much. This sounds more like an argument from someone whose sole intent is to deny the other person's claim, not legitimate input.
    Look, i know youve never done a solo heal so ill explain it best i can, shadow priests are a part of that and usually an ele shaman is brought in to off heal. shadow priests sometimes also help with infest by casting shields which negate a lot of damage and a huge problem that faces the solo healing person. Thus why my point was it should be in a seperate part of the guide or a separate guide should be created for that as it deals with things you would normally not do/use or a raid comp you would not normally use.

    This sort of discussion doesn't benefit the guide at all, so it's probably for the best that you guys took the cockfighting to PM's instead of posting this garbage on here.
    Then why even bring it up and continue it if thats the way you feel about it?

    again when is the last time youve even played hpal? when have you done a solo heal? what commentary have you added to this theorycrafting to help improve or disprove any theories? unless you are here to help or show why something is better or worse idk why you are in this thread at all personally. although it is your choice, its a poor one and is helping no one.

  4. Spoiler: Show
    Lets get something straight right now. there is no "true" solo heal. There are always dps specd classes who off heal or have healing abilities built into their rotation.

    lets also check the full logs http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...Soul+Reaper%22

    how many times did u cast JoL during reaper exactly?

    again as i said above don't know why you are casting JoL anyways. Prot should def have prio over you casting it and so should rets if no prot is available or in raid. you should at least consider this as a revision in your guide since you did not answer it with your last reply. ill quote beanlord again.

    again JoL is there to pad meters as it is more useful for other specs to use it vs you.

    honestly then that needs to be a seperate guide or a seperate section in the guide. solo healing you are doing things and using things you would not normally use or do in a full proper/optimal set up. So lets not confuse the two.

    the problem is you say

    yet RNG is exactly what you are playing with and as the logs show it burned you (more than once) shatered i know you understand what im talking about and i know you must realize how flawed the above statement is. All im hoping for is that you correct some of the following statements and thoerycrafting in this guide such as:

    imp conc shoudlent be listed as an option
    imp LoH should be considered over other options in the spec
    JoL should NOT be used by you unless oyu are legit the only paladin in the raid and if so as i said before leave that raid
    PSP stat gains + the hit rating more useful than the crit from other legs
    you should NOT be judging 5-6 times per min
    RNG DOES exist with judge and its best to minimize it as much as you can without giving up too much in stats

    those are just my issues with the guide as some others have also called out these issues and more seems it would be wise of you to at least at minimum add their theorycrafting into the guide, give explainations they have provided here, and give both your opinion and the theorycrafted reasons on such topics. If there is one thing i have learned in my time here and on retail there is always someone who knows more than you, there is always room for improvement, and chances are you are not always right. no matter how skilled you are no matter how many personal achievements you or your guild has. Again i know you are better than 99% of warmane. I totally respect your solo heals. But yet again, you have glaring issues with what you said vs what is factual. I really do not want to keep replying to things in this guide that should i would imagine be common sense for a player of your caliber, no disrespect.


    Firstly, I'm not sure if you understand to what part of the whole process of judgeing on CD I was referring to, when I was talking about no RNG, so let me clarify that one more time for you: I wasn't talking about whether your judge hits or misses, that is clearly RNG and its still RNG even with the hit legs, what I was referring to, is that it's up to the player to see when these small opportunities arise, in order to safely judge. The logical scheme I did a few messages ago, it's probably the simplest and easiest way to explain the whole process. I think it's very clear and efficient, thus, I've even add it to the guide. If the that scheme doesn't help you understand how this whole thing works, I don't know how else to explain it.


    Secondly, I will address your other points:
    Spoiler: Show

    Imp LoH
    I've already added a tip in the builds section, where I mention that if the player finds himself using Lay way too often, then he should consider adding 2 points to Imp LoH. I did this, because I realized that for a person that is completely new to hpally or to the healer role in general, will most likely find himself using LoH a lot of times, since he is not used to the class/role. But the logic behind it, is that he will, most likely, do a lot of mistakes, which is normal and expected from someone new to the class, and since LoH is in 9/10 cases used to cover a mistake, be it in your end or because of someone else, it can help the beginner until he grows. When the end-game is reached (I'm referring to the skill of the person), you should no longer find yourself in need of using LoH that often, to justify the 2 points spent in Imp LoH (this applies for farming the content with standard comps, not specific, uncommon cases). Therefor, you should consider spending these 2 points in something else. This is only based on an assumption, that the normal player, just want's a build for everything and doesn't want to be bothered changing talents for every specific scenario, in order to maximize everything for every fight. If he wants to do so, obviously we no longer talk about a standard build anymore, but a specific one for each scenario. Creating a standard build, for general use, was the main focus of my guide. - I hope you are, at least with this point, all good now.

    Hit rating (PSP) + JoL should't not be used, bla bla...
    You're wasting your time with this particular subject, I've had this discussion already, many times, for years now.

    To put it short and simple: because you have a high chance to get 4% of your mana back every time you judge, since it counts as an auto-attack, is enough for you to want to judge on CD, period. Because of this, it doesn't even matter if someone else is using judge or not, because your starting point for doing this is that you want to min-maxing your mana gains. - "Why not just auto-attack instead?" you might ask - Because you can only do that, if there is no mechanic during the fight, that doesn't punish you for being in melee range or even close. There are a few fights that don't have such a mechanic and allows you to auto-attack as you please + on top of that, these fights are usually trivial anyway, It barely even matters what you choose to do. The problem is that the majority of the fights, particular the most important ones, have such a mechanic, that will punish you or even wipe your raid, if you stay in melee range or if you are out of position.
    Examples of such fights and what can happen if you stay in melee range:

    Lady - From phase 2, your whole raid is supposed to be spread, thus it will reduce the number of people who will get hit by explosion, if a player fails and soaks a spirit, not to mention that most of spirits that are soaked, are soaked in melee, so if you are close them, you only increase your chances to enjoy the rest of the fight while eating popcorn.

    PP - try this fight with no buff and stack 2 puddles on top of each other, see what happens. (staying in melee will increase the chance of that to happen)

    Fester & Rotface - do I need say anything about this? - True, not hardest fights by any means, but good luck staying in melee or close to them, as range.

    Council - you increase the chance of having a vortex spawning in melee = multiple ppl have to move = dps loss. Empower Shock Vortex - although you can theoretically run away from melee range to spread, just like any other melee, in practice, it makes it significantly easier for others if you are just not there to begin with and pre-spread already.

    BQL - The more stacked your raid is, the more unnecessary damage is taken. Not to mention that if your raid is predominant in melee already and you choose to stack with them, you can get 1 shot.

    Sindragosa - Here is probably gonna be someone complaining about this, since maybe in his vision, if you get unchain, you don't cast at all - which is ******ed -because that will result, in most of the times, in your tank being dead. You get unchain, you move away everyone and you keeping healing, because you need to heal the tank, but you're going to do so very carefully. You cast until you have a certain number of stacks, the number is debatable as it depends on many factors (until the stack nr. that 1 shots you), personally I usually stop around 6, but again, it depends on the situation.

    LoD - transitions: your whole raid is supposed to be as spread as possible, if you go in melee, which is the most stacked group at that point, you will make things worse and force unnecessary damage or even wipe your raid sometimes.
    - phase 2: defile, your simply playing with fire here, you might get away once if you have nitro, but without it, there are high chances that is a wipe.
    - phase 3: defile, same sh*t as phase 2 + explosions from the spirits. Some spirits will most likely be missed by the people who are supposed to soak them, if you are stacked with someone, both of you will get damage from it, not to mention that if 2 spirits explode nearly, both of you will die.

    Halion - this is not really mandatory, but is usually very helpful if the meteor is placed as far away as possible, from the opposite site, as it decreases the chance of someone dyeing from flames.

    There you go, I hope that answers "Why not just auto-attack instead?".

    And for the hit rating point - the hit rating that the PSP provides is simply not enough to make A LOT OF DIFFERENCE, between having and not having them, at least that's how they felt to me each time I've tried them, in order to justify that crit loss, which many underestimate the need of crit.
    Crit = more mana, because of Illumination (this should the second mana gainer through-out a fight, behind divine plea)
    Crit = less chances that your tank dies, because if you crit during windows when your tank is getting clapped, you might save his life and maybe even without using a CD, or at least not a major one.

    Again, I've used, at some point, even more hit rating than the PSP provides, while I was gearing my last hpally alt (you equip what you get at first, beggars can't be choosers), and still didn't felt like any real difference and keep in mind that I do a lot of judges through-out the fight.

    Imp conc shouldn't* be listed as an option
    Yeeeah....not going to happen (cba writing anymore)

    I hope this answers your questions @Freddybaby. (I know it won't, don't worry)

    If there are other, new topics, that I can assist with, let me know. Because as far it goes for these topics, that where discussed already in the last 4 pages of this forum, I consider them closed. Should you need my advice on these again, or anyone else from this wonderful community, please feel free to go through what has already been discussed until this point.


    Kind Regards,

    Shaterhand
    Edited: October 12, 2020

  5. that is clearly RNG and its still RNG even with the hit legs, what I was referring to, is that it's up to the player to see when these small opportunities arise, in order to safely judge. The logical scheme I did a few messages ago, it's probably the simplest and easiest way to explain the whole process. I think it's very clear and efficient, thus, I've even add it to the guide. If the that scheme doesn't help you understand how this whole thing works, I don't know how else to explain it.
    again real quick, you have less RNG with PSP due to more hit. you also get more int, haste, and spell power. i totally understand what you are saying but its really pointless to put yourself into a 1.5sec GCD when its not even nessecary. why do you seem to not understand that judging less is a good thing which is what the PSP pants do for you. even in these "windows" you have spoken of. again we both agreed LK for example is a good time where you want to judge less in order to heal more as damage is constant. Using PSP would help you have to judge less would you not agree?

    i even showed you logs where you did it more than once right as reaper hit and you where unable to heal due to you being on GCD. i dont know what more proof i can show that all your talk of "experience and knowing when to judge" means very little when you are constantly doing it on your own logs.

    Spoiler: Show
    its not even about being new to hpal. I think you are missing the reasons why even a talented player would want it. Curious to know what you would suggest in replacement of those 2 points if that is indeed your play style. Armory is showing you having 3/3 imp conc which again as I quoted beanlord before is absolutely nearly pointless as you are wasting 3 talent points to pick up something that is a very, very small, almost negligible, damage gain for a few classes vs having a CD on a life saving ability (its still nice to have it even if its reduction is 11min down from 20) and giving your tank a nice little cd as well. The only logic I can see in imp conc would possibly be a speed kill and even that would require you to roll those certain classes more so in fact in order to even see the gain bc its so small and thus would not be optimal anyways. You are putting too much faith in this being a starter paladin talent and that could not be further from the truth. This reminds me of the argument about shamans as an example and people who think 1/3 elemental weapons (15 spell power) is better than tidal force when they clearly do not see the potential it provides.

    Imp conc is just garbage as its been stated and shown to you many times here in these replies by others far smarter than me.

    If you really do not understand why JoL is better used on any other spec than we can pretty much stop having this discussion in general.

    Many of us have told you why its better for anyone else to judge JoL besides the hpal. Prot gets more from the heal and prot/ret can keep it up 24/7 and wont have to rely on your misses or not even if you were using PSP. JoW and getting in hits on LK is very easy as it’s the only fight where mana maters but more on that later…

    There are a few fights that don't have such a mechanic and allows you to auto-attack as you please + on top of that, these fights are usually trivial anyway
    Then why did you go on about all these fights and give all these different explanations? Again you are constantly contradicting what you say. Either way all those bosses you listed don’t matter save for one, as mana wont be an issue on the rest assuming you know when to plea ect, and that’s LK.

    All those other bosses last 3-4min max. if you are running out of mana that fast and don’t know when to use plea you have way bigger issues.

    Not to mention you act like you are just hitting the boss all day long instead of getting a hit here or there when you can. Why?

    You mentioned sindy…like…really? Air phase on tombs that you can hit does not exist or something… cmon lol. I mean this alone should serve as a wake up call to how far over the edge you’ve gone with your replies and crazy ideas.

    This was already covered in this reply
    The only boss which matter in terms of mana and longevity is LK. The whole point for your mana is to survive second phase thats why you want to start this phase with nearly full mana which is basically easy cause it happens right after transition phase where you have plenty of time to return your mana and basically where shaman use Mana tide as well as Innervates and Hymn of Hope happen.
    If you are properly geared there is no reason to hard regen mana like you seem to be pointing at besides maybe 1-2 melee attacks while moving together with the melee.
    LoD - transitions: your whole raid is supposed to be as spread as possible, if you go in melee, which is the most stacked group at that point, you will make things worse and force unnecessary damage or even wipe your raid sometimes.
    Its like you don’t even know what is doing damage on transition phase or how it works. Like you are acting like you cant just move away or something.

    Lets get to the PSP vs non argument

    With your 2% inc crit pants youll get on LOD or 10 mins pure fight 2% crit are worth of 20 mp5s at best or 2400 mana return for 10 mins fight. Which is almost near nothing in the grand scheme of things.

    PSP- while there is a chance to miss, out of 15 logs I have went through it missed once.

    I could go on and on and on about things already covered by many other people who have posted the exact same things here some of which you still have yet to make an argument disproving or at least even make a comment to try and sway your argument with what they said, but its clear reading the last bit of your post that you are now done with taking any advice or learning anything and are now resorting to defending your ideologies with fallacies and mistruths.

    Anyway, this is not the most optimal way of playing hpal nor should anyone listen to the counterarguments you’ve laid out as they have clearly been disproven time and again. just read the last 4 pages and youll clearly see why.

    I guess in a way it is good that this whole thread exists as it will serve to point out a few of the misguided beliefs that most of the servers paladins have about certain things that we have gone over in this thread. I hope you at bare minimum learn something from all of this and apply it in raid at least once and try to test it.

    Good luck sir

  6. Thank you for your time.

    Kind Regards,

    Shaterhand

  7. On one hand, I want to write a wall of text about the bad advice and wrong comments being posted, but then I remember that it's a generalized holydin pve guide. So unless we're going to have a part of the guide that goes into detail on specific bosses "this is EXACTLY what you should do", then these minor things you are going back and forth over are just about meaningless. A guide should be giving people the basic information they need so that they have a sound foundation upon which they can learn their class and build upon it with experience. In which, it is better that the players in question should learn when they should and should not use judgment via experience - what works for them and their usual raid setup. Not everyone is going to be doing LoD (most don't), and THE LORD KNOWS THAT IF THEY HAVEN'T FIGURED IT OUT BY THE TIME THEY ARE ON LOD, THEN THERE IS A LITTLE MORE WRONG THAN MINUTIA WRITTEN IN THIS GUIDE (i.e. they likely have no business being at LoD yet).

  8. Spoiler: Show
    On one hand, I want to write a wall of text about the bad advice and wrong comments being posted, but then I remember that it's a generalized holydin pve guide. So unless we're going to have a part of the guide that goes into detail on specific bosses "this is EXACTLY what you should do", then these minor things you are going back and forth over are just about meaningless. A guide should be giving people the basic information they need so that they have a sound foundation upon which they can learn their class and build upon it with experience. In which, it is better that the players in question should learn when they should and should not use judgment via experience - what works for them and their usual raid setup. Not everyone is going to be doing LoD (most don't), and THE LORD KNOWS THAT IF THEY HAVEN'T FIGURED IT OUT BY THE TIME THEY ARE ON LOD, THEN THERE IS A LITTLE MORE WRONG THAN MINUTIA WRITTEN IN THIS GUIDE (i.e. they likely have no business being at LoD yet).


    I was considering doing such a section, where I explain the PoV of a hpally for every fight, while I was writing the guide, but I had to abandon that idea. The problem is that such a section would require, alone, probably half of the time that I needed for the guide, as it is, and I don't really have much free-time nowadays, as this guide alone was written & edited across a few months.

    I will try to do it when the time permits.

  9. If you want to work on such an elaborate project, then by all means, go for it. But I'll completely understand why you wouldn't want to, and it's probably for the best that you didn't.

  10. I will try to do it when the time permits.
    Would love to see it


  11. we legit had this discussion in the first 3 pages. feel free to refrence the part about PSP> anything else and the math backing it up.

  12. Wait wait, i should gear haste? Man I can guarantee that I have read some guide here where it says we go full intellect build + gems and that 20% haste is enough. Damn those people have lied to me...

  13. Wait wait, i should gear haste? Man I can guarantee that I have read some guide here where it says we go full intellect build + gems and that 20% haste is enough. Damn those people have lied to me...
    This depends.. haste is better for throughput, but it also eats your mana way faster (less regen + more casts)... If you are fine with mana and need more healing get more haste, if you are fine with throughput and lack mana get more intel. (long fights like LK may require you to have more intel to keep you casting)

  14. This depends.. haste is better for throughput, but it also eats your mana way faster (less regen + more casts)... If you are fine with mana and need more healing get more haste, if you are fine with throughput and lack mana get more intel. (long fights like LK may require you to have more intel to keep you casting)
    Sometimes I have feeling that besides 4 other healers in icc25, nobody is actually healing tank or anything. It's more like I'm alone on both tanks and the whole group... So what happens? Sometimes tanks lose 80% of their health and then when I cast my holy light, it goes for too long and bum he dies... It has 1.4 seconds cast right now (with the proc). So I either must use fast flash of heals + <the quick heal thing> and pray to god he survives.

    Also I have around 33-35k mana and they said 40k+ is somewhere at bis.

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