1. 1 Week Ago  
    The real issue is people blowing a few points of fact out of proportion to make bold and often contradictory claims about what prot warriors are and aren't, and shuffle the blame for failure onto the tank because it's easy.
    Out of curiosity, could you point out such "contradictory" claims? I haven't seen one in this forum thread yet.

    They've basically manufactured a stigma around the spec after a decade of intellectual inbreeding that simply didn't exist in retail and, had it been brought up at the time, would have them laughed out of any decent progression group.
    Retail was live, whereas now we've had a decade of theorycrafting to figure out what works best and what doesn't. Why would you assume they were correct and we are wrong? And why do you think we would care if they laughed at us? I'd rather we examined the arguments individually, rather than assume Retail is gospell and modernity is wrong.


    It comes down to a few minor differences in the "nice to have" category that are in no way necessary or of any significance in clearing all the content available in this patch.
    I don't think anyone argues Prot warrs cannot tank anything. Rather the point is that they are worse tanks than the other 3, for a few reasons.
    Champion amongst these is the inferior EHP (bears have massive hp, DK and Paladins get 15% more than warrs). Is that a "nice to have" only? Is it of no significance?

    I suppose it depends on how you would define it.
    Would you accept, instead of a proper holy paladin, a ret who uses holy gear with a ret spec? Couldn't the entire holy spec tree be considered a mere "nice to have" for a healer and by no means a necessary feature for healing?
    If you have an objective criteria to separate "nice to have" and "need to have", I'd love to hear it.

    Any player or guild that would deny you over that frankly isn't **** and shouldn't be taken seriously.
    I'll be honnest, I've never been in a serious raiding guild that doesn't **** on prot warrs constantly and prefers to take paladins or w/e instead. But maybe that's just me. And a lot of these guilds cleared LoD/Rs hc regularly, which surely must be enough for us to take them seriously, wouldn't you agree?

  2. 1 Week Ago  
    I don't think anyone argues Prot warrs cannot tank anything. Rather the point is that they are worse tanks than the other 3, for a few reasons.
    Champion amongst these is the inferior EHP (bears have massive hp, DK and Paladins get 15% more than warrs). Is that a "nice to have" only? Is it of no significance?
    Where does 15% extra ehp come from for dks and paladins? Only difference is they both have talent that reduces dmg that takes them below 35% of total hp by 15%. It is nowhere near as valuable as having 15% more EHP.

  3. 1 Week Ago  
    It's just because most of people dps and don't care about aggro. That 's a matter when you play war tank, because you need to build a bit your aggro. In a world where people don'tt wait, care only about gs, and dps recount that a matter. In other hand you have paladin, drood, dk able to keep aggro in one spell, + their ability. So you have a class (war tank) which requier knowledge, tactic, and good communication. When other tank are able to sustain somes dps errors.

    For example: I did toc as 2 tank (i choose 2 because i'm lazy) at anub mt was low life and die in the same time one mage burst and ofc he took aggro. I used instant my taunt + shield but not enought aggro to containt his aggro and he get rekt.

    But war tank is really powerfull with a good group.

  4. 1 Week Ago  
    Where does 15% extra ehp come from for dks and paladins?
    Intellectual inbreeding.

    You're correct that a situational 15% is not in any way equal to a flat 15%. It approaches 15% as group skill declines, and makes or breaks a run based primarily on group error rate.

    But war tank is really powerfull with a good group.
    This is half right, imo. Fury's prominence in 3.3.5a dilutes a fair chunk of the warrior's impact on raids, especially 25s. Unlike retail, class power is still prominent in Wrath and different specs share a lot of the same abilities. When comparing tanks you have to set aside general buffs, debuffs and other utility that all warriors bring to the table.

    Looking at it strictly from that perspective, though, tanks are pretty similar in performance (with DKs being a major outlier in this expansion) and their toolkits outside of threat generation become more obsolete as group skill increases. Their individual tank-specific utility exist to cover different errors.

    Warriors "excel" in this regard insofar as they cover more errors (specifically, more types of errors) than other tanks, but this comes at the cost of effectiveness in correcting any one error, and they are "harder" to play well in a bad environment for the same reasons. Of course, insisting they are bad for this reason is effectively admitting your "serious, skilled, optimal group" is just a bad environment. That was pretty much a given when "progression" was cited unironically in the context of 10-year-old content anyone with sufficient funds and basic data entry skills can obtain.

    An actual group of experienced, skilled raiders would have at least -15% effective ****s given, and by their own math I guess that makes them bad.

  5. 1 Week Ago  
    Where does 15% extra ehp come from for dks and paladins? Only difference is they both have talent that reduces dmg that takes them below 35% of total hp by 15%. It is nowhere near as valuable as having 15% more EHP.
    Yeah fair enough, it's not the same thing. Still incredibly valuable though, since it's generally spikes of dmg that will kill your tank, and that talent ensures you need to deal an extra 15% dmg on those spikes to actually do it.

  6. 1 Week Ago  
    Will of the Necropolis Rank 3
    Damage that would take you below 35% health or taken while you are at 35% health is reduced by 15%.
    This is okay, approaches an EHP of roughly just over 5% assuming you regularly dip into it averaged out, which you need to do because it's conditional.

    Ardent Defender Rank 3
    Damage that takes you below 35% health is reduced by 20%. In addition, attacks which would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed by up to 30% of your maximum health (amount healed based on defense). This healing effect cannot occur more often than once every 2 min.
    This is incalculable in practice, but we can reasonably assume that (in the same bad environment where this is constantly proccing) it is significantly better than WotN simply for the free 30% heal/cheat death on a 2m ICD. It's the absolute closest you're going to get to double-digit EHP increases as a broad statement, as we approach infinite parses averaged in a mediocre group that lets this happen on CD. Warriors and DKs roll with multiple additional controlled personal CDs that can't be provided by other raid members and don't carry odd penalties or incompatibilities which are ultimately more useful in thoroughly documented, ten-year-old content.

    Imagine any other spec for any other role in PVE or PVP citing a single-digit, situational, niche superiority with a straight face. That's basically every non-core talent in a nutshell. Shunning (let alone mocking) a spec for that is almost incurably ignorant. Doing over training wheels is just laughable.

    These are the kinds of differences that simply do not matter in a good group. They didn't ten years ago, and they sure af haven't released any updates for 3.3.5a that have changed that.

    So you can argue that, due to irreparable brain damage, the community of players that can barely limp along in 5man HC without screaming and throwing feces at each other has the perception that warriors are bad because who knows or cares (the same brain trust that decided Naxx and ICC needed the same GS requirements, probably), and that perception is going to make it hard to get into some pugs or mediocre guilds even after your warrior pounds another tank into the dirt due to grievous misunderstandings of how game math works.

    The reality, though, is that a good warrior tank is better than 95% of the tanks on this server, and the rest are practically indistinguishable from each other.

  7. 1 Week Ago  
    This is okay, approaches an EHP of roughly just over 5% assuming you regularly dip into it averaged out, which you need to do because it's conditional.
    Assuming it takes 3 roughly equal hits to bring your tank down from 100% hp to 0, and only the 3rd hit will be affected by the dmg reduction, then yeah it's exactly a 5% increase of EHP.
    Now if one hit brings your tank down from 100% to 0, then that one hit sees its dmg reduced by 15%, which is a 15% increase of EHP.

    Maybe your tank never drops below 35% hp, but I've seen tanks die in 2 hits or less (shambling screech, reaper+melee swing, breath + melee swing etc), which in practice means that 5% figure you came up with is the absolute lowest benefit you can get from it : in practice it can benefit you a lot more (maybe even double digits).


    Imagine any other spec for any other role in PVE or PVP citing a single-digit, situational, niche superiority with a straight face. That's basically every non-core talent in a nutshell. Shunning (let alone mocking) a spec for that is almost incurably ignorant. Doing over training wheels is just laughable.
    I dunno how situational it is exactly, tanks dropping at or below 35% hp is not a rare occurrence. In any case, it's not the only reason why Prot warrs are worse than other tanks, it's simply the only one I've mentioned. There's an entire thread dedicated to that.
    For the record, I'm neither mocking anything/anyone or implying Prot warrs are ****. I only claim Prot warrs are worse than the other 3 tanks.

    As for the "training wheels" argument : I don't mind agreeing with you there, it's a talent that makes your life easier. But Wotn/Ardent are probably the strongest tank talents these specs have, no? Are there other talents that are significantly stronger and that you wouldn't deem mere training wheels? Or are all tank talents simple accessories that a good tank doesn't need?


    So you can argue that, due to irreparable brain damage, the community of players that can barely limp along in 5man HC without screaming and throwing feces at each other has the perception that warriors are bad because who knows or cares (the same brain trust that decided Naxx and ICC needed the same GS requirements, probably), and that perception is going to make it hard to get into some pugs or mediocre guilds even after your warrior pounds another tank into the dirt due to grievous misunderstandings of how game math works.
    Err, Is that what you think I've done? Cuz I'll be honnest, my entire argument so far has been to attempt to explain why Prot warrs are weaker than other tanks. It has never been to denigrate people who play that or to **** on anyone. Play anything you want, as long as you enjoy it.

    The reality, though, is that a good warrior tank is better than 95% of the tanks on this server, and the rest are practically indistinguishable from each other.
    A good swordsman can kill a marksman right? But the point was never to imply that the people who play prot warr are worse than the people who play pallies, bears etc. Rather it was to say that the class itself, irrespective of the players wielding it, is worse than the other alternatives.
    Maybe all players who choose to pay Prot Warrs are the most awesome players who ever played. That however wouldn't change the inferiority of the class. itself though.

  8. 1 Week Ago  
    I'm sure there is an entire thread devoted to this sort of intellectual inbreeding, which kind of only reinforces my point. The "inferiority" is hair-splitting where it counts.

  9. 1 Week Ago  
    So you can argue that, due to irreparable brain damage, the community of players that can barely limp along in 5man HC without screaming and throwing feces at each other has the perception that warriors are bad because who knows or cares (the same brain trust that decided Naxx and ICC needed the same GS requirements, probably), and that perception is going to make it hard to get into some pugs or mediocre guilds even after your warrior pounds another tank into the dirt due to grievous misunderstandings of how game math works.
    .
    True. In a old game It's curious how people don't care about tactic,..... but prefer use the most "broken". That make this game more simple but the cost of this is huge. (aka war/hpala meta in pvp,)

    p.s: i have so many stories as war tank. Like when I did VOA 25 with a dk tank both above 5k5 gs + tactics,... but wype and healers insta crying about how theirs tanks suck. We kicked them took new healers, and miracle 0 matter, ez raid.

  10. 1 Week Ago  
    I'm sure there is an entire thread devoted to this sort of intellectual inbreeding, which kind of only reinforces my point. The "inferiority" is hair-splitting where it counts.
    Claiming that identifying any weaknesses in the Protection Warrior toolkit is an exercise in mere "hair-splitting", or that warrior tanks were perceived as being on equal footing with other tanks in late 3.3, is the quintessential kind of ignorance that's characteristic of the most ardent Prot Warr proponents. End-game guilds absolutely did catch on to the weaknesses of Prot Warrs when it came to end-game content, and this much is evident to anyone who's cared enough to look for these discussions.

    It's also entirely natural that this would be magnified severalfold in the WotLK private server scene, where most of these servers are frozen eternally on this particular patch. Retail 3.3.X, as it played out originally, was not as well an understood science as 3.3.5 is on most private servers.

    That said, it's understandable to be blind-sided by how shunned Prot Warrs seem to be here, compared to back on retail, especially if you were in anything other than a high-end guild. But you have to take into account all of the following:

    - Retail 3.3 saw a lot of Prot Warrior mains heading into ICC because that was their main spec the entire expansion. Prot Warriors were amazing for a lot of pre-ICC content. Contrast this against most private servers where the only meta ever has been 3.3.5.
    - Some of the changes that elevated other tanking specs over Prot Warriors only happened after 3.3, at which time the implications of these buffs weren't fully understood.
    - On retail, you would typically have a much smaller pool of players and geared characters to choose from. This is another reason why the player was often the most important consideration. Choosing the protection warrior main who had been tanking the whole expansion, over the Protection Pally who only tanked as an off-spec and had fewer ICC pieces to boot, was a no-brainer. It's for a similar reason that world-first comps often look so unusual - because players try to squeeze the most out of what they have, which sometimes involves selecting the most-geared toons available regardless of spec. Today, most raids have the luxury of choosing between 20 prospective Paladin tanks before they have to take the trouble of picking a Warrior.

    So it's really all the above, in addition to the aforementioned point that the 3.3.5 meta is much more clearly defined on private servers, and then all of that gets dramatically amplified further still by the age of the patch - which means the stigma against Prot Warr is quite deeply entrenched into the psyche of the Wrath community at this point! You can say that it's not entirely justified, or that it's hysterically exaggerated, and honestly to some extent you would be right - but to say that it comes from nowhere would be misguided.

    Why are we considered bad tanks?
    As to the why of this matter - most of it comes down to EHP, as other posters have pointed out. The hardest bosses in this patch are grueling tests of tank EHP.

    Bears are inherently brimming with plenty of it, and Prot Pallies and Blood DKs have talents that simulate the effect of having higher EHP than what their health pools suggest. Ardent Defender has a secondary effect that increases the value of the last 35% of a Paladin's HP quite substantially, and Blood DKs have something similar in Will of the Necropolis, although the increase to their EHP netted by this talent isn't quite as mathematically cast as in stone as Ardent is for Pallies.

    Another reason, quite frankly, is also the simple fact that Protection Paladins exist. It's possible to rationalize bringing in a Protection Warrior over a DK or a Bear, but it's extremely difficult to justify the opportunity cost of a Paladin tank. Even if they didn't do almost everything that was relevant as an end-game tank better than Prot Warriors, there's also the fact of their sheer raid utility by virtue of being a Paladin. And then of course, nothing quite clinches the deal like Ardent Defender. Not that the rest of their toolkit wasn't compelling enough.

    It's a bit obscene how overpowered Protection Paladins are in this patch, but it is what it is.
    Edited: 1 Week Ago

  11. 1 Week Ago  
    @DarkenedHue

    That's a very well written post; my props to you.

    Spoiler: Show
    I'd like to add, that I also enjoyed reading jendah's, sprotess's and komarac9323's comments as well, as they were very informative.

  12. 6 Days Ago  
    Claiming that identifying any weaknesses in the Protection Warrior toolkit is an exercise in mere "hair-splitting", or that warrior tanks were perceived as being on equal footing with other tanks in late 3.3, is the quintessential kind of ignorance that's characteristic of the most ardent Prot Warr proponents.
    1. No one said that.
    2. No one said that either.
    3. Oh, I see, you just wanted an excuse to call me ignorant and that was how you chose to frame it.

    Charmed, I'm sure.

  13. 6 Days Ago  
    KeK.
    Why people can't accept that warrior is weakest tank for ICC? Nah, they tend to continue arguing over this fact (both by raw numbers and toolkit) and barking at each other.
    I myself have prot warr and yes - he is like 2 heads lover than 3 other tanks.
    So please, stop spreading toxicity on forum over this long-time answered and claryfied them.

  14. 6 Days Ago  
    It has nothing to do with minor statistical differences and everything to do with overblown significance of said differences. Myopic fixation on numbers without relevant context fuels community misperception, so badly that Blizz has literally handed out buffs in the past based solely on inability to get into groups despite a lack of significant performance disparity.

    5head number crunching and late-xpac whining don't change the flood of prot warriors that rolled into ICC10N-25H with our guilds and did just fine because we didn't suck. The theorycrafting is interesting but not relevant, insignificant in practice, and in the context of "proof why warrior tanks are bad" or "reasons why you should pick x over y for your run" is simply wrong.

  15. 6 Days Ago  
    With your myopic fixation and other cool words you forgot the age old truth of "path of least resistance".

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