WotLK Fan of Knives (Weapon Damage or DPS?)

[AtanasTrip]

So the tooltip says
"Instantly throw both weapons at all targets within 8 yards, causing 105% weapon damage with daggers, and 70% weapon damage with all other weapons.

I've seen multiple people say it's the DPS number, and not the Weapon Damage figure. Which is it?

Basically is it best to do
dual axes "Havoc's Call, Blade of Lordaeron Kings" that has 481-895 Weapon Damage and 264.6 dps
or is it
dual daggers "Heaven's Fall, Kryss of a Thousand Lies" that do 381-572 Weapon Damage and 264.7 dps.

if based on weapon damage then 70% weapon damage of the axes would be 336.7-626.5 or if dps 185.22
Daggers would be 105% so 400.05-600.06 or if dps 277.935

Thoughts?

[angrylol]

It says "weapon damage". Some tryhards even change their fast offhand for slow one for FoK, but I don't get it since you proc less energy that way doing less damage in the end.

[Sprotess]

It's based on weapon damage and not DPS. Double Havoc is the best option but Heaven's fall or Bloodvenom Blade do the job just fine. The difference between them is so small that you shouldn't actively pursuit fetching a second Havoc only if nobody in the raid needs it.

And this isn't something for "tryhards", the dps gain from having two slow weapons with instant poison on valkyrs or on living embers in ruby heavily outweighs the energy loss + dropping deadly poison stacks on the main target. Every rogue that does end-game content should have a slower weapon in his bags.

[angrylol]

Ask 100 "end-game" rogues, they will all say it's wasted effort. They would do it if there is a pproblem with valkyrs. And on embers, you do your 4 FoK's during ToT and push boss, then if they don't die passively can start to think about boosting more FoK dmg - more likely fixing raid build is solution because someone is not doing their job.

It's pretty much for Recount numbers apart from few and far apart instances.

[Sprotess]

Ask 100 "end-game" rogues, they will all say it's wasted effort. They would do it if there is a pproblem with valkyrs. And on embers, you do your 4 FoK's during ToT and push boss, then if they don't die passively can start to think about boosting more FoK dmg - more likely fixing raid build is solution because someone is not doing their job.

It's pretty much for Recount numbers apart from few and far apart instances.

You should ask around a little bit more before coming up with your own theories. Swapping weapons will always be a dps boost as long as you do more than a couple of foks. And since when do you count valkyr and ember damage as padding the meters? How can it be for "recount numbers" when that's your main job in that part of the fight? Wouldn't focusing lich king instead of the valkyrs be considered padding?

You're still hitting with a 2.6 offhand, you're still generating energy. It's just less attacks. Instead of roughly 20 offhand hits in a 15 second gap you'll have 12 offhand hits. You're trading 8 autoattacks on a 20% chance to generate 15 energy (which, if you're lucky and it procs twice, comes down to 30 extra energy which isn't even an extra fok) for having a 900 base damage fok over a 500 base damage one + having instant poison instead of stacking deadly poison on a target that's either going to die by the time deadly poison gets stacked or flies back up in the air. Just because you're lazy to switch that doesn't mean everybody else is doing it for "recount numbers". And it's most definitely not a wasted effort.

[angrylol]

Sure can help on valks, at least while there are 3 of them. Nice brief window.

And yeah, i know those great rogues with 0 tactical thought on Halion. After ToT wastes their energy on FoK with slow oh+insta, drops deadly from boss, embers dead in 15 seconds. they pose 0 threat to anyone and can be burned sown nicely in 30 secs without any scrifice on Halion. Then turns out here comes third meteor because it was pushed 2 seconds late.

Sure such weapon swap and stuff is cool, but don't give it so much credit, should have asked around a little bit more I guess.

[Sprotess]

Sure can help on valks, at least while there are 3 of them. Nice brief window.

And yeah, i know those great rogues with 0 tactical thought on Halion. After ToT wastes their energy on FoK with slow oh+insta, drops deadly from boss, embers dead in 15 seconds. they pose 0 threat to anyone and can be burned sown nicely in 30 secs without any scrifice on Halion. Then turns out here comes third meteor because it was pushed 2 seconds late.

Sure such weapon swap and stuff is cool, but don't give it so much credit, should have asked around a little bit more I guess.

"Rogues, rather like Feral Druids, are a class it can be difficult to put out good Val'kyr damage on. The difference between a rogue who knows what to do and a rogue who is very sub-par is enormous. You can either be bottom of the barrel, or you can be almost up there with Rets and Fury Warriors.

GLYPH FOK AND USE A 2ND 2.6 WEAPON ON YOUR OFF-HAND. Yes, exactly like you do in RS. If you analyze the damage contribution from FoK you see how the glyph is more than worth it, especially considering how bad the 3rd glyph spot for combat rogues otherwise is.

Blade Flurry is your holy grail here. This is basically the most OP offensive CD any class has for Val'kyr cleaving. Knowing how to use it and maximize properly will see your rogue ****ting on everyone else. Your Blade Flurry has a 2 mins CD, this means you can use it on either the 1st and 4th Val'kyr waves, or on the 2nd and 5th ones (Check this or this for a look at the cleaving superiority you enjoy from knowing how to use BF and cleaving right, and note that it was without a 2nd rogue to swap tricks with on Val'kyrs). Stack BF with AR (adrenaline rush) as much as possible due to the extraordinary synergy between them. When Val'kyrs spawn, make sure your Slice and Dice has 20+ seconds remaining. Swap to your 2nd 2.6 weapon, make sure it's coated with Instant Poison, auto-attack a Val'kyr, and spam the living **** out of Fan of Knives."

This is a segment from an old Ohana 0% guide. Don't mind any talk about bladeflurry, I bolded out the parts that should be of interest in this conversation. If you don't want to trust me, than I'll show you a reliable source. I don't expect a clown like you to believe this source either, but maybe it will help somebody else reading this.
Stop arguing if you're not gonna back up your claims. I gave you a reason, you're too stubborn to change your views. Here's a better source, now please stop.

[angrylol]

Lmao, why so butthurt?

What I said makes perfect sense and by the time he is doing "omg 0% greatness" he will know this stuff and how to properly tune everything for it. He wont need a clown copying some stuff he takes for gospel.

[astee]

Basically is it best to do
dual axes "Havoc's Call, Blade of Lordaeron Kings" that has 481-895 Weapon Damage and 264.6 dps
or is it
dual daggers "Heaven's Fall, Kryss of a Thousand Lies" that do 381-572 Weapon Damage and 264.7 dps.

From personal experience swapping OH for kryss is the optimal choice, as you don't lose OH attacks and are more likely not only to proc combat potency, but also get more poison procs. The FoK damage difference between Havoc and Kryss is unnoticeable (however havoc deals a bit more), but you just win a little from autoattacks. Your third choice would be bloodvenom blade as you don't lose you arp cap with it, but it's base weapon damage is lower than Havoc's, and there's also the useless hit which will not boost your valk damage in any way (unless shp don't cast vampire touch on each one). Still, with kryss in your offhand you're gonna end up with like 1380 arp.

However, having instant poison on both weapons is not a very good idea. First of all deadly applies a debuff (Savage combat) to the valks therefore making all physical dps deal 4% more damage to them. And you also are very likely to lose the 5 poison stacks on LK which will even out the small dps gain from the tiny extra damage you will deal to the valkyrs with x2 instants.

So what I would suggest is having a Kryss (arp gem) with deadly poison for fok swap. If you have a vast weapon arsenal you may even swap a different kryss every time you FoK for x3 / x4 berserk procs.

Also a reason not to equip 2 slow weapons:
"Weapons equipped in the off hand generally do 50% less damage than they would do when equipped in the main hand, and many players equip speedier weapons that hit quicker to mitigate this effect. For most classes able to dual wield there are talents to reduce that effect" (c) wow wiki

[AtanasTrip]

Thanks for the responses.

Well we're specifically talking about when casting FOK.. aka swap to dual Havoks for FOK and then back to Havok and scourgeborn waraxe with deadly.

For FOK dual havoks would have instant poison on them and when swapping to the fast offhand it would have deadly on it.

The goal here isn't to run dual havoks all the time..

Now regarding swapping the offhand to the dagger.. do you get a mixed benefit there where Kryss would proc at 105% and havok would stay at 70%?

[Bastardbottle]

Ask 100 "end-game" rogues

Witnessed some end-game rogues doing FoK during p1 for ghouls, that alone cost my trust for rogues :D. Well, also witnessed some progressive lods where valkry dmg lacked and people died 1 after 1 so, maybe that helps for those kind of situations.

[astee]

Thanks for the responses.

Well we're specifically talking about when casting FOK.. aka swap to dual Havoks for FOK and then back to Havok and scourgeborn waraxe with deadly.

You will end up in situations where you'll have your offhand fok weapon equipped for 5-8 seconds, for example when fok spamming with AR

Now regarding swapping the offhand to the dagger.. do you get a mixed benefit there where Kryss would proc at 105% and havok would stay at 70%?

Fok works sort of like kill spree, it deals damage from both hands. However, something I only thought of right now is the damage penalty for offhand will probably make a higher base damage weapon lose more than a fast one, and I only compared fok damage from main hand, so the numbers may be different in OH

[Fluffybully]

Now regarding swapping the offhand to the dagger.. do you get a mixed benefit there where Kryss would proc at 105% and havok would stay at 70%?

FoK %base damage is based on MH weapon. You equip anything but dagger in MH it will do 70%. You use MH dagger both weps will do 105% dmg. #


YOU DONT swap to dagger at all when combat speced.
- Instant poison % proc chance is based on base weapon speed(WE WANT SLOW)
- H&S talent. Dagger doesnt proc it. And no MH axe/sword plays no role dagger still wont proc in OH

[Scu5]

Shouldn't you then use a Kris MH and Havoc OH to make that juicy 105% dagger multiplier work on that even stronger Havoc?

Kris 953 (min+max dmg) * 1.05 = 1000.65 dmg
Havoc 1376 * 0.7 = 963.2 dmg

So in terms of FoK Kris is slightly stronger than Havoc as MH. And you'd get a whopping

1376 * 1.05 = 1444.8 dmg with a Havoc OH.

This is all before specc depending multipliers ofc.

[Rhubarbtheorc]

Agrylol made really nice point here which most rogues miss. When you go 2x Havoc you loose energy regen. People like Sportess dont realize that because they are not pro rogues, so they just go with obvious logic, go 2x slow wep. But when doing that you loose lot of energy so you spam less FOK than you would with fast offhand.

So just stay 1 fast 1 slow and all GG.