People started to announce rezzed items only after they gather people and current rules are not against it
- Changing looting rules during the raid, after it has started.
Example: You joined a raid that was being advertised as one with no reserved items and after first boss raid leader says that he reserves item x from last boss.
Loophole is that people can just search for ppl and announce rezzed items just before the boss, at that point we can leave the raid but our time would be wasted already. I thinking adding another rule for it like -Rezzed items must be announced during advertisement, would fix this loophole. People can agree with loot rules from beginning like announcing that items that have mp5 is only for healers without anything related to reserving items etc.
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Member
Fixing a loophole for ninjalooting
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Moderator
I don't understand what's the loophole. If they change the loot rules, i.e. suddenly include reserved items after the Raid started, which includes right before a boss, they are already breaking the rule you're quoting. How would forcing people to list reserved stuff in the announcement (which can be a long list too) change it? If they're going to be dishonest anyway, what keeps them from changing the loot rules before the boss in the same way, wasting time in the same way? Isn't it simpler for you to directly ask the raid leader "are there any reserved items?" before the raid starts, than make the spam even worse with larger blocks of text?
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Member
You get the last person and raid leader announces that b+o+p rez while you are getting summoned to raid or buffing up. Asking is an option aswell but why would you allow them to trick people by allowing whisper rezerves, it us that should know what they reserve or them that should announce before they invite people? I posted this cause people started to abuse this especially at toc25
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Moderator
How can taking the initiative of making sure there are no reserved items be "allowing them to trick people"? Isn't it in your interest to make sure of the raid loot rules? From the same page where you quoted that part of the rule: "Please bear in mind that best way to avoid ninjas is common sense."
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Member
My understanding is that there is no loophole: If he recruits with the massage "LFMXM for ICC 10" it means that it has no reserved items, as it is not stated. You screenshot that. If he /rw a change to this any time after the raid starts it is in the area of ninja looting:
Changing looting rules during the raid, after it has started.
Example: You joined a raid that was being advertised as one with no reserved items and after first boss raid leader says that he reserves item x from last boss.
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Member
Obnoxious, you don't understand what he's trying to say but I do so I can make it clearer to you in laymans terms (He's really not saying it straight forward either).
He's saying you advertise in global "LFM ICC25"
Then once you join and you're at the boss with all 25 players the raid leader announces the rules like I normally would:
(These are my terms and conditions for my raids, my raid rules)
/rw Raid Rules: MS > OS, Guild rules apply to guildies (both sparta and ICCR). Loot distribution based on ML's discretion, Raid Leader has 100% power over raid. Reserves: Shards + Eye of sulfuras + Sulfuron ingot
/rw Along with my basic raid rules: ALL PVP GEAR IS ROLLED FOR Off-spec unless you specifically change Main Spec to MS PVP. If you do change MS PvP instead of MS PVE then you will only roll PVE gear when OS rolls happen. Announce MS changes now
He's claiming that because he was invited to a raid and wasted his time getting the summon and/or clearing trash that makes him entitled to all the raid loot regardless of the raid leaders rules he never asked for, which he's wrong.
Also @Keymouse8800 that's not entirely true,(read edit) however if the raid leader is intentionally recruiting for the raid and never specifies a reserved item and then claims said item is reserved AFTER the raid is saved, but never once mentions the reserve prior to the saved ID it is a ninja. If it's mentioned in raid warning before boss pull then it is NOT a reserve as you are 100% free to leave the raid without gaining a raid ID. Especially if it's specified in raid warning.
Edit: Didn't fully read it, that's completely true, the raid start would be upon boss pull/starting the raid and getting saved without all rules being fully explained.
***NOTE: Many players recruit for a reserved raid without mentioning said reserved items because reserves do a few things 1). Confuses people and scares them 2). Turns people off to the raid and formation 3). No reason to mention reserves if nobody needs the item and you can make sure of it. So if you mention an item is reserved after you form the raid and everyone is there and you 100% know nobody needs the reserved item, then you mention in the raid warning to follow up and let everyone know it's reserved, then when the guy doesn't know it's reserved later and loses said item to reserve, it's his fault for not paying attention to the raid rules and raid warning that announces reserves. It's also his fault for not asking for reserves list or raid rules.***
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Moderator
I understood what he said perfectly, but from what you're saying I'm not sure you understand the rule he's quoting if you were saying you declare loot rules only at the first boss like his example. The raid doesn't start at the first boss, it starts the moment people are all set and begin the content, even before killing the first mob. Loot rules are meant to be known before that, so anyone who wants to leave before anything is done can do so without losing any time beyond the grouping and stuff. If the loot rules aren't stated before that start, not right before the first boss, the players should demand that the leader do so and not move.
Also, ironically, you seem to not understand what he's saying. He never tries to say he is entitled to loot, he just wants it to be enforced by a rule that the advertisement contains all reserved items, which is completely unnecessary if he were to just take the time to make sure he knows all loot rules before he accepts an invite, in case being summoned is such a major hassle (which is what he says the second time, at first it was about what I covered above, rules only being stated before the first boss). It's something players can handle themselves, there's no need for a rule. Can you imagine the sound of the facepalming if GMs were to get and have to process reports saying "this guy didn't make a proper PuG advertisement"?
I mean... this is basically...
/w raidleader Is any item reserved?
/r None/These items are <list of items>
vs.
Take screenshot of invite;
Join raid;
Wait for everyone;
Get buffed;
Don't bother demanding loot rules at the start;
Get to the first boss' toes to be told loot rules;
Take screenshot of loot rules after inside the raid and playing to the first boss;
Upload screenshots;
Open ticket;
Wait for GM to reach the ticket;
Wait for GM to recover from the post-facepalming concussion;
Wait for GM to get over self-loathing for having to give punishment.
Which one seems simpler and more streamlined?
I'll quote the same line from the ninja rules again: "Please bear in mind that best way to avoid ninjas is common sense." Common sense is only starting or joining a raid knowing the loot rules, not asking for new server rules because you can't be bothered asking if anything is reserved.
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Forum Veteran
There's usually reserved items listed in the advertisement. If not, do as Obnoxious pointed out above, and ask.
"ToC 25 BoE res" doesn't exclusively tell you what counts as reserved. BoE = Binds on Equip, yes, but it's often said by the RL's to include orbs and patterns.
Can this misunderstanding/uncertainty/lack of information/loot rule be cleared by asking a simple question? Ask away before making a commitment.
You'll save yourself some time and possible disappointment.
Do this especially if you're joining the raid as last spot filler. These advertisements often leave reserves out, as they're hurrying to start. Take your time, ask for loot rules/reserves/MS changes before going in the raid instance.
If the raid leader doesn't answer? Leave the raid, it's sign of bad leadership, or an attempt to hide something.
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