WotLK Spellhance help

[Persivaln]

Strange I don't think I've ever noticed that bug before and I've been playing enhance for a long time now

Nah, it was so for several monthes maybe, especialy if you use 5x stacks for Chain Lightning.

[Zeaconn]

So, come again, how is t7 not itemised towards building spenha? Proven by any1 playing it in t7-is not only superior to its agi part, but also many other !viable! specs (unlike frost mage, but ehh why am I mentioning it? it must've been a paltry joke from your side!) that post is literally on the same page, all we need is to scroll up. In a logical, coherent way, mention of a wraith strike follows and its praise to underline how valuable this weapon is to its tier. It is a realistic, experience based statement, defended by the succes of a bis list/info posted. Know better? post smthing better. Play it out better. You can't, obv. Every1 can ****talk, but then again, who cares bout empty theorycrafting that exist only in someones head, without its practical reflection?
this being said, let's assume I know dung bout enha essentials. That's one hell of a nice dung, it seems! With this build, the RF's were taken, with this exact mindset enha shamans in top, hc/shc guilds were progressing through t7 and t8, firmly contesting for top3 dps spots. But hey, what do I know?

Spellhance needs a lot of haste to work because otherwise you get low maelstrom procs and don't make enough use of your spells.
How much haste can you get in T7? Late naxx Shaman has around 350-500 depending on how close it is to BiS.
That's pretty low. Not to mention that any spell piece picked up is a piece that doesn't give expertise, another cap that is hard to reach in Enhance T7.

What are the pros of spellhance in Naxx ?
-high base damage
-nice use of flamecaps
-lower damage variance: reliable
that's pretty much it

What are the downsides ?
-Roll on caster items and ****s with your casters (ex: Dying Curse). Result is that you set your guild behind by handicapping progression for casters.
-Need very specific items otherwise doesn't really work (dying curse, again)
-Hit & exp caps are hard to reach
-movement dependant: not a big deal in naxx, becomes a huge problem in Uldu.


Imo, the cons outweighs pros. I've tried Spellhance T7, and its fun & viable, but it's absolutely not optimal for T7 progression if you're in a serious guild.

Also you are wrong about Wraith Strike, this weapon is nothing special and KT25s weapon is simply superior in terms of stats. Both are main-hands so you can only wear one.
Spellhance doesn't need spellpower weapon to function. and you get way better items than Wraith Strike in Ulduar

[Zeaconn]

Also I forgot to mention that by going spellhance you lower your melee critical chance down to sub 30%, which means that on a bad streak you will LOSE "flurry" and lose a lot of DPS.
The reason spellhance existed in the first place is that lategame gear allows you to "discard" some extra melee stats to get some benefit from the spellpower side of shaman. In T7 you simply don't have the stats budget to make it work consistently: not enough haste, not enough crit, and a hard time reaching exp cap.

[Dozorto1]

Zeaconn you've mixed a lot of assumptions with poor understanding of both t7 and spenha, leading to a conclusion that is untrue (not reflected by the reality)

Spellhance needs a lot of haste to work because otherwise you get low maelstrom procs and don't make enough use of your spells.

FALSE, spenha likes haste as a stat, BUT it does NOT *need* it to *work*, by which I understand dealing a respectable amount of dps.

any spell piece picked up is a piece that doesn't give expertise, another cap that is hard to reach in Enhance T7.

FALSE not only it's irrational to look at only the stats you lose while comparing two different items, it's also not that hard to cap exp. Play orc, ez life. JWC gives an easier way of reaching exp cap. eoe25 trinket, mark of nogganon, is widely considered prio to enha shamans (It's only downside is being an usable trinket, thus triggering shared-cd of engi gloves). Neither does it lock the DC slot, nor does the KT weapon gives exp. What was your point again on spenha skewing itself from exp? also, in the bis list on page 1 the only caster items are neck/mh/ring/trink. It's out of question: it doesn't hinder the player from getting an exp cap.

What are the pros of spellhance in Naxx ?
-high base damage
-nice use of flamecaps
-lower damage variance: reliable
that's pretty much it

ability to use flame caps is not an upside of the spec. Literally nobody will compare different specs/classes and say 'oh ye, this spec better, because of how it uses flame caps or storm chops
and if 'good dmg, not rng based' is ' pretty much it' then it's the most lame attempt of a pros list for enha I've seen.

What are the downsides ?
-Roll on caster items and ****s with your casters (ex: Dying Curse). Result is that you set your guild behind by handicapping progression for casters.
-Need very specific items otherwise doesn't really work (dying curse, again)
-Hit & exp caps are hard to reach
-movement dependant: not a big deal in naxx, becomes a huge problem in Uldu.

Neither is hit/exp caps hard to reach, nor is DC essential for a spec. In the first post I've mentioned A DECENT AMOUNT of trinkets that serve as replacement. While both with wraithstrike do give a big boost of dmg, it's never down to 1, 2 or 3 items to suddenly make an enha work'n'shine.
Movement does NOT become a huge problem in Ulduar. IIRC I've played my alt enha on our /g first Alga kill on fmourne, as a 4th guild/realm.

Imo, the cons outweighs pros

You mean that poor excuse of a list you wrote? Hope not. One of the actual downsides to spenha is it being one of the harder specs to play in wotlk

I've tried Spellhance T7, and its fun & viable, but it's absolutely not optimal for T7 progression if you're in a serious guild.

Fun, viable and too hard to execute for you. It's not only optimal, but recommended, especially in a serious guild and super especially in t7.

Also you are wrong about Wraith Strike, this weapon is nothing special and KT25s weapon is simply superior in terms of stats. Both are main-hands so you can only wear one.

FALSE you seem to have a wrong idea of a stat weights that are within the boundaries of spenha meta. Wraith strike is a better weapon by a margin. Which I've experienced first-hand, as i've had had KT25fist for over a month of double resets before finally getting wraithstrike. Significant dps increase, on spot. With a 2 months worth of logs to compare stats, for every pve scenario in t7.

Spellhance doesn't need spellpower weapon to function

to function no, to shine? yes. And I've never wrote there aint no better weapons in ulduar; for those able to read with comprehension, it was a remark regarding the sheer, stat-weight induced excellence of wraith strike. For spenha, in t8 the only better options are 3: caress (had 1 in oh), constellus/alga caster dager.

Also I forgot to mention that by going spellhance you lower your melee critical chance down to sub 30%, which means that on a bad streak you will LOSE "flurry" and lose a lot of DPS.

You can't make a comparison/tradeoff and look ONLY at the drawbacks. Suggesting, that an overall would be at loss is FALSE.

In T7 you simply don't have the stats budget to make it work consistently: not enough haste, not enough crit, and a hard time reaching exp cap.

FALSE to claim there aint no 'nuff values. It's just like with people saying affi lock is entirely late game scenario, as there is not enough haste in t7. Doesn't seem to bother literally any legitimate affi lock to be top1 on DpS charts. Didn't stop me or spenhas in top realm guilds from skyrocketing with dps during t7. #GitGud, as those claims seem to be an excuse of the poor performance you had with spec.

[mier]

Just create a spellhancer with the mentioned gear setup on RAWR and run the DPS simulation on EnhSim.
Then we can have a discussion which is based on facts and not on subjektive opinions.

[Dozorto1]

It's the performance on spot/in practice/in use that is the ultimate factor, with a priority over any sim. Sims were created to help us build optimal and it's the build's intention to be able to prove itself in a raid, not in a sim. This being said, while raiding I've been simming every single piece remotely avaiable to spenha while also having the luxury to test it in a practical, ultimate ground.

PS. Sims SHOUT that they are innacurate, unreliable source of information, to be taken with a grain of salt. Not to disregard their usefulness; rather to debunk any unnecessary layers of affection towards *tools*. That are souce of *opinions*, not facts. If you are taking anything that a sim would spit out as a 'fact' (doesn't matter if it turns out right) you are missing its fundamental idea.

PS2. rawwr, kekw

[Persivaln]

You realise that only reason why spellhance is allowed to raid and can do decent dmg is a exploit/bug of all "progression" being on 3.3.5 corr, not 3.1 and further?
Fire nova was **** before 3.3 cuz it was totem.
So in summ:
Was spellhance a thing in 3.3.5? Yes, you had lots of raw SP on gear and so on
Was spellhance a thing before 3.3.5? No, because it had different talents and scalings, but since noone make talent reverts to be like they were at 3.1+, spellhance appeared where it was never ment to be.
So it's actualy exploit of system that NEVER existed on retail.

[Dozorto1]

w/e, who gives a **** about a retail from 2009
I do not realise outdated, irrelevant servers from far past, no.

[Persivaln]

Well, it's same as giving OP talent to underdog at current version so it becomes top-tier dps and makes half of other raid specs irrelevant and non desired in raid compositions.
So yes, any sane persons gives this word.

[Zeaconn]

FALSE not only it's irrational to look at only the stats you lose while comparing two different items, it's also not that hard to cap exp. Play orc, ez life. JWC gives an easier way of reaching exp cap. eoe25 trinket, mark of nogganon, is widely considered prio to enha shamans (It's only downside is being an usable trinket, thus triggering shared-cd of engi gloves). Neither does it lock the DC slot, nor does the KT weapon gives exp. What was your point again on spenha skewing itself from exp? also, in the bis list on page 1 the only caster items are mh/ring/trink. It's out of question: it doesnt hinder the player from getting an exp cap.

You're avoiding the gearing issue. Listing end of T7 items (EoE 25) isn't an asnwer to you needing caster gear that would otherwise got to actual casters, thus slowing guild's progression. Progression, by definition, happens BEFORE the end of patch my friend.

FALSE you seem to have a wrong idea of a stat weights that are withing the boundaries of spenha meta. Wraith strike is a better weapon by a margin. Which I've experienced first-hand, as i've had had KT25fist for over a month of double resets before finally gtting wraithstrike. Significant dps incrase, on spot. With a 2 months worth of logs to compare stats, for every pve scenario in t7.

Nah, you're wrong. Bigger weapon damage and overall better stats makes KT weapon a clear winner, and if you're going to blindly shout "false" please bring something else than "muh experience" cause it isn't worth ****. Bis spellhance list uses agi weapons by the way

FALSE spenha was a thing on retail, cause it PUMPS those numbers, and it did better back than btw. FALSE to claim there aint no 'nuff values. It's just like with people saying affi lock is entirely late game scenario, as there is not enough haste in t7. Doesn't seem to bother literally any legitimate affi lock to be top1 on DpS charts. Didn't stop me or spenhas in top reealm guilds from skyrocketing with dps during t7. #GitGud, as those claims seem to be an excuse of the poor performence you had with spec.

You're wrong again, previous to 3.3.5 shaman didn't have the same ratios on spell and spellhance was actually fairly weak (non-viable for the most part). Why do you insist on speaking about things you have no idea about ?
Btw I also topped recount with spellhance (aswell as normal enhance) because 3.3.5 shaman in 3.3 environment is busted. That doesn't make you good or right rofl

ability to use flame caps is not an upside of the spec. Literaly nobody will compare different specs/classes and say 'oh ye, this spec better, beacuse of how it uses flame caps or storm chops
and if 'good dmg, not rng based' is ' pretty much it' then it's the most lame attempt of a pros list for enha i've seen.

Ability to use fire spell buff on a double flametongue spec IS an upside, do you even read what you say?



I think I'm done with the convo, good job on being 4th best on a easy serv (lol) but sadly you're still wrong on all counts.

[Dozorto1]

you're avoid the gearing issue. Listing end of T7 items (EoE 25) isn't an asnwer to you needing caster gear that would otherwise got to actual casters, thus slowing guild's progression.

My bad, I'd assume we are talking semi-serious environment, with players knowing rotation, buying flasks, having dbm and so forth. That results in eoe25 being on afk/auto-pilot farm on 1st/max 2nd reset. It's by no means end-game, hard to get/out of reach content. It is a 'ok, we are 25, with a tank, healers and above 3.5k avg gs' content
In a guild, it is not an issue to gear spenha. In a pug? yes, it is expected to be flamed, but so does ele shaman who opts for cloth caster items. And how is a gear acquisition of guild's member, a raider, a suppression of guilds progression? It makes no logical sense.

Nah, you're wrong. Bigger weapon damage and overall better stats makes KT weapon a clear winner, and if you're going to blindly shout "false" please bring something else than "muh experience" cause it isn't worth ****. Bis spellhance list uses agi weapons by the way

You like to repeat your opinions in light of contrary arguments, can't argue with that. Yet another time spellhance without sp, go figure!
And how foolish I was, to swap KT25 weapon for a wraith strike, which was a substantial dps increase-but it wasn't, it seems? Apparently so.

Ability to use fire spell buff on a double flametongue spec IS an upside, do you even read what you say?

Is flame cap a buff to spenha dmg? yes. Is this a factor even remotely relevant and significant in ANY! review of a spec? Couldn't possibly imagine so. What I wrote states true, as it's a mockery towards a way, in which You implied it could be considered vital to mention in this topic. Here it goes AGAIN:
Literally nobody will compare different specs/classes and say 'oh ye, this spec better, because of how it uses flame caps or storm chops
When listing upside/downside of a spec, one could mention:
-buffs (totems!),
-spells (lust, offhealing, huge cleave dmg),
-reliance on mana replenishment or having a mana pool whilst in melee (kt, looking at you).

Saying, that troll could be green or that enha is using a vendor totem as an upside/downside of a class.....FOLLOWED BY, WAIT FOR IT........

that's pretty much it

.....

So I'm right in a raid, able to stay relevant in a toxic, extensively demanding environment but you don't agree with me? Right/wrong in that case is indicated by in-game experience; how the builds are validated (or not) through the game. Not whether if any opinion is appealing to one's taste.

[mier]

PS2. rawwr, kekw

It seems like you are not aware that RAWR is only used to create the character. The data is then exported to EnhSim where the actual simulation is run.

Your comment makes me assume that you have never used EnhSim which is considered the best theorycrafting tool of Wotlk.
The BiS gear that everyone is using on ICC is actually based on EnhSim.
I'd recommend to read this thread:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160124...33-and-onward/
That will get you started in to theorycrafting.

[mier]

1. It's not a topic about t10 enha

You don't say.
But we have the class mechanics of patch 3.3.5. just different gear.
Means we have to use theorycrafting tools that support patch 3.3.5

3. Any legit Bis build is based foremost on it's performance, by which it's checked. To achieve such idea, all sources of information are taken into consideration, sims among them.

Indeed but you didn't take "all sources of information" into consideration and that's the actual problem.
You didn't sim anything or at least not with the right tool.

Come back when you have simed your gear on EnhSim and then we can have a serious discussion.

[Rocksy763]

Literally everyone in here who is saying T7 Spellhance is not viable or better than normal build is only going off of sims. Have any of ya'll even tested it in game because if you have you'd see that it is better. Any serious guild wont even allow enhance shamans to go AP build because its just worse. Saying that you take caster gear away making it less dps overall is dumb as well. If you're in a guild that can clear all raids before reset its not even close to a problem. Lastly if you look at the original post it literally says to not comment anything about not playing spellhance. I don't need anyone telling me not to play it because I will play it. I just wanted help from some people into crafting a bis list for T7. If you want to argue about spellhance go somewhere else cause this thread is quite literally not meant for that.

[mier]

Literally everyone in here who is saying T7 Spellhance is not viable or better than normal build is only going off of sims.

Dude. Read my posts again. I never claimed that spellhance is bad in T7. I simply don't know it because I didn't play or sim it in T7 gear.
However, I have played and simed T10 BiS gear setups for a haste, arp and spellhance build and I can assure you that EnhSim is very close to ingame results. The gear setup that does the most DPS on EnhSim also Deals the most DPS ingame.

I just wanted help from some people into crafting a bis list for T7

It seems like nobody in this thread has done any theorycrafting for T7 yet or is able to provide any reliable source. So you have to do your own teste. My advice is to get RAWR and EnhSim from this thread http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=311020 and sim your gear.
If I find the time I might do it aswell.