Anyone know where I can find a comprehensive feral dps guideS? Every single one I've found on these forums has been for ICC patch. Can't find any videos of forum topics for ulduar star and gear priority. If anyone could help with that, would be much appreciated.
-
Member
Any Ulduar Feral dps guides?
-
Forum Veteran
VVhat exactly are you interested in?
- tactics for specific boss encounters;
- agility vs arp;
- switching idols;
- BiS gear;
- sth else?
[edit] I kinda wrote this message w/o reading your whole post. Sorry!
Regarding BiS gear
VVell... I don't use rawr, so I am not the person, who you should listen to, but here are some of the gear choices, which pop up in my head and were mentioned in other guides:
1. Head - T8;
2. Neck - Freya 10hm or General Vezax 25 hm;
3. Chest - T8;
4. Shoulders - T8;
5. Cloak - Hodir 25 hm or Gen. Vezax 10 hm;
6. VVrist - XT 10 hm;
7. VVeapon - Freya 25 hm or Algalon;
8. Idol - Rip or Shred (depending on your arp; some users use all 3 and switch them during fights);
9. Hands - T8;
10. Belt - Yogg-Saron 10 hm;
11. Pants - Yogg-Saron 25 hm;
12. Feet - Lw boots;
13. Rings - Algalon 25 and Algalon 25 quest item;
14. Trinkets - Thorim 10 hm + Algalon 25
Disclaimer - some users prefer to have 2pt7 and 2pt8, but I personally prefer 4pt8.
Regarding the stats
I presume you meant "agility vs arp", because hit rating and expertise remain 8% and 26. Anyway, I did some calculations a few weeks ago, and I came to the conclusion that arp + Shred idol does indeed prevail over agility + Rip idol at a certain point. You can do the switch at around 400 passive arp from gear. If you do 15 or less Shreds per minute on average, then the Rip idol would still be better.Edited: August 19, 2021 Reason: just a small edit
-
Member
I'm at 455 ARP right now in ulduar through gear. Should I switch all my agiility gems to arp? Or wait until ToC? I'm worried about not having enough crit. Currently at 50% right now unbuffed with agility gems.
Also, I'm the using the Agility mangle idol. I only mangle to refresh the buff since it has a 100% proc chance. So I usually have like 30-45 mangles per fight. If this is wrong, I'd love to have someone confirm.Edited: August 19, 2021
-
Forum Veteran
1) I'd say switch to arp. If you don't mind, I'd like to show you some numbers, which I got after doing some general calculations:
Spoiler:Show
2) If this wasn't clear enough, you don't need to wait 'till ToC, especially if you already have Grim Toll/Mjolnir Runestone. Could you pls share your toon's armoury here?
3) Uuuhm
Formulas:
Mangle (regular) = (Autoattack damage*2+566)*Naturalist*Savage Fury*Savage Roar
Mangle (7078 AP) = (((7078/14)+55)*2+566)*1.7556
Mangle (7078 AP) = 2963 or 6714 (in case of crit) => 4838.5 (on average with 50% crit chance)
Mangle (7078 AP & 53.7% arp) = 2334 or 5289 (in case of crit) => 3811 (on average with 50% crit chance)
vs
Shred (regular) = (Autoattack damage*2.25+666)*Naturalist*Rend and Tear*Mangle*Savage Roar
Shred (7078 AP) = (((7078/14)+55)*2.25+666)*2.28228
Shred (7078 AP) = 4861 or 11015 (in case of crit) => 7938 (on average with 50% crit chance)
Shred (7078 AP & 53.7% arp) = 3831 or 8681 (in case of crit) => 6256 (on average with 50% crit chance)
So, using Mangle over Shred when it's not necessary will cost you 2445 damage on average.
But, Kova, what about the 153 agility (165 with the 2 talents = 181 AP + 2.1% crit; 181 agil with BoK = 219 AP + 2.3% crit in raids) buff I get from my mangles? VVell... let's see whether the buff can compensate the loss:
Shred (181 AP, 52% crit chance, 53.7% arp) = 52 vs 118 (crit) vs 86 dmg on average
Rip (181 AP, 52% crit chance,11 ticks) = 189 vs 428 (crit) vs 313 dmg on average
Rake (181 AP) = 78 (not going to bother to calculate the crit from the initial attack)
AA (181 AP, 52% crit chance, 24% glancing, 53.7% arp) = 15 normal vs 11 glancing vs 34 (crit) vs 24.5 (average)
FB (181 AP, 53.7% arp) = 190 crit (not going to bother to calculate the average damage if I get a regular attack)
Mangle (181 AP, 53.7% arp, 52% crit chance) = 36 vs 81 (crit) vs 59 dmg on average
So, these are the numbers, and now we're going to look only at the average outcomes. So, a question occurs: how many attacks would we stick into the 12-second frame?
17 AAs (0.7 attack speed) 1x Rip (I'm being generous here; you'd prolly use it on every 2nd Mangle), 2x Rakes (still very generous), 8 Shreds, 1x FB (I'm very generous), 1xMangle (you prolly use it after the buff has expired, but once again I'm going to be generous here)
2445 vs 416 (AAs) + 313 (Rip) + 688 (8 Shreds) + 156 (2 Rakes) + 190 (FB) + 59 (Mangle)
2445 vs 1822
2445>1822
=> using Mangle instead of Shred is a misplay
Sources for these formulas:
wotlk.evowow.com
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=298787
A full list of the formulas (using their respective enchancing talents) can be found on my thread.
Conclusion: Mangle Idol is Scheiße for cats, and you can see why. This is the reason why people use either the Rip or the Shred idol, which depends on their arp.
Some players, like XXXX, swap idols during fights. For example, he starts with the Mangle idol, then switches to the Rip one, when he's about to cast Rip, and Shred -> for Shreds. However, I DON'T RECOMMEND anyone to use that. Last year (and a bit during Naxxramas this year), I also switched idols. I found out that there's a hidden GCD/delay, which doesn't allow us to use our abilities immediately. So, I wouldn't recommend anyone to go for it during Berserk or when their energy is almost full. You can also miss on some trinket buffs.Edited: September 8, 2021 Reason: removed the name of the player
-
Member
How do you share armory? Never been on these forums btw.
I'd also really love to talk to you in game. My name is Vallaisop I'm on the frostmourne seasonal server horde sideEdited: August 20, 2021
-
Forum Veteran
1) Since you shared your name here, you can just click on the 'Armoury' on top of the warmane site. There you'll find a textbox, in which you can write the name of your toon or guild. You don't need to do it now, because I can do it myself, but I'm saying all of this just so you know how to do it in the future.
2) My cat's name is the same as my forum username. Though, you have to pardon me, because I am too tired to talk to people rn. I'll be logging off in a few minutes.
-
Member
Alright I added you. Don't worry about it. If you don't mind a few questions:
Some questions I have though:
1.) Why ARP trinkets? They don't snapshot bleeds since bleeds don't factor armor (unless I'm stupid). Attack Power trinkets do, so getting 30 seconds of rip snapshotted with a 10 sec trinket, seems best to me, unless you can explain why?
2.) Won't swapping to ARP lose too much crit rating to the point where crits become a problem?
3.) You spam shred during berserk, even at 5 combo points, because FB eats up too much energy, but isn't it worth it to use FB on clearcasting procs? By my calculations, a FB crit does twice as much damage as a shred, so comparing shreds, 10k damage and 21 energy cost VS FB 22k and 35 energy cost (With CC) the latter seems like a better trade off.
4.) I'm running Pyrite Infuser + Fury Five Flights trinket. I can't really take off the infuser right now because I need the hit, but are you saying Mjolnir runestone is better than FFF? Does the proc make up for the permanent 320 AP that FFF gives?
-
Forum Veteran
1); 4) I'm going to be as forthcoming as possible. Please understand, but I'm not in the mood to spend time to do more calculations for other people. Those, which I normally do, regard topics, which are of interest to me (as you'll see further down below). For example, I was curious to see whether switching to arp was going to be worth the trouble and under which circumstances. I don't use rawr; I prefer to do my own calculations and set my own conditions when I try to find tendencies in the dps. I don't know whether you use that program, but in case you don't I'd like to give you an entire list of the formulas that I use. You can use them to calculate YOUR OVVN damage and to get a clear answer regarding the things that CONCERN YOU. You might know them already, but I wanted to post them here just so we are on the same page:
Continuing with the first question - yes, it's absolutely correct that arp trinkets don't snapshot our bleeds and that the latter don't get affected by the target's armour. However, the reason why I mentioned those items in my first two posts was because they popped up quite often in BiS lists (Grim Toll for the Naxx patch and Mjolnir for Ulduar). I'm not the type of person, who hunts BiS items on Frostmourne due to two simple reasons:Spoiler:Show
- the gear lasts only 3 months, which will then be replaced by the one from the next patch;
- the items don't always drop, and there's competition for them in my raids.
This is why the only BiS list, which I respect and know for certain, is the one that contains ICC and RS items. During the other patches, I'm the type of guy who works with whatever I get my paws on.
Once again, if you want to get a definite answer, then the formulas would help you get it. Think about how many AAs, FBs, Shreds, Rip ticks, and Rakes you do on average per minute.
Note: Rip doesn't last 30 seconds. You might have rounded that number up, but in actuality it has 22 seconds (+3 Shreds, but no 2pt7) or 26 seconds (+3 Shreds and 2pt7).
2) Interestingly enough, I've always had the same question. It's true that by lowering our crit, we get less critical strikes, which result in less raw damage and less CPs (=less energy). However, if we have 283 agility from all available gem slots (this includes talents) like in Catisgud's case, then we lose 3.7% crit. This doesn't mean that we will suddenly have 0 crits during fights. It all boils down to RNG, but let me show you how the average outcome would look like.
Imagine that our regular shreds do 5k damage, while our crits 10k (I'm just simplifying evertyhing in this example). If we have 50% crit, and we do 100 shreds, 50 of those would be regular and the other half - critical. On average, we would do (5.000*0.5)+(10.000*0.5)=7.500 damage per Shred. If we have 3.7% less crit, then on average the numbers would look like so: (5.000*.537)+(10.000*.463)=7315, which is admittedly lower than our previous result, but not by a huge margin. And then arp comes into play, which can lower the first number by a great amount to a point where it makes it less attractive.
Let me show you:
So, on average arp prevails just because the damage reduction from the boss's armour is too high. Again, RNG will affect you differently, and sometimes you'd feel that you have less critical strikes than normal. That's why I look at the average results and observe the tendency. If you look at my second post, you'd see that in order for arp to prevail (with all factors taken into consideration; well... except the class buffs), you need to do X amount of Shreds per minute to gain that small dps increase. This is why I gave you the formulas above - so that you can see it for yourself how much damage you do depending on the number of attacks per minute, so you see whether switching to arp would be worth in YOUR CASE.53.7% arp.................................................. ...........................................34.2%
DR% = 21.11%............................................ .................................................. ....26.69%
DA = 0.788............................................. .................................................. ........0.733
262 Arp from gems, 7078 AP, 50% crit, no idol ........................................283 Agil from gems, 7389 AP, 53.7% crit, no idol
Shred (normal) = 3466 .................................................. .............................. 3308
Shred (crit) = 7854.............................................. ............................................ 7496
Shred (average) = 5660.............................................. .................................. 5557
3) See this?
FB consumes additional energy (up to 30 REGARDLESS IF YOU HAVE A CC PROC OR/AND BERSERK IS UP), and it gives you a pathetic dps at the end. This energy could have been used for another ability. If you don't mind, I'm going to calculate it here myself:
Let me show you what I see:53.7% arp, 7078 AP, 50% crit, Shred Idol
Shred (normal) = 3831
Shred (crit) = 8681
Shred (average) = 6256
FB (5 CP) = 12309 (crit; 74% chance to occur); 5432 (26%); 10521 (average)
FB (24 extra energy) = 1922 (crit; 74% chance to occur); 848 (26%); 1643 (average)
FB (30 extra energy) = 2403 (crit; 74% chance to occur); 1060 (26%); 2054 (average)
- if we ignore the extra energy consumption from FB, we see that one FB (18 energy) is far greater than any Shred (21 energy). So, if we have <20 energy, we should definitely use FB.
- If we consider the extra energy consumption from FB (let's say 24), we will see that 2 Shreds (42 energy) are better than one FB (42).
- However, more realistically the FB will consume 30 energy. In that case, the damage from one FB (48 energy) is better than 2 Shreds (42 energy).
- DISCLAIMER: After using an ability, we trigger a GCD, which lasts one second and regenerates 10 energy. I'm going to showcase a hypothetical example if we have 50 energy, 5 CPs, and only 6 seconds of Berserk:
1st case: 1xFB (48 en) + 2 Shreds50 energy:
FB -----2 energy & GCD----> 12 energy ---0.9 sec idling-> Shred ----GCD--> 10 energy ---1.1 sec idling--->Shred -----GCD--->10 en ------idling --> Berserk ends
Shred -----29 en & GCD ------> 39 en Shred ------18 en & 1 sec GCD ----> 28 en Shred ---7 en & 1 sec GCD----> 17en-----0.1s idling---->FB -- 1 sdc GCD----> 10 en ----1.1 sec idling---> Shred ---> Berserk ends
2nd case: 1xFB (18 en) + 4 Shreds
Let's imagine that in the 2nd case, we actually did 3 Shreds due to latency issues and/or human error. Let's compare the damage:
12575+12512 vs 10521 + 18768
25k <29k
As you can see, there's a reason why some people spam Shred. I'm also part of this group, but from time to time I use FB with 50% or 100% energy. VVhy? VVhen? Here's how I play - I am a player, who tries to be as energy efficient as possible, because more energy gives us more Shreds. The cases, when I use FB with a lot of energy, are ONLY THOSE when I have lucky CC procs, and I AM CERTAIN that I won't be able to use my energy to its fullest. It would be wasted once Berserk ends anyway, so I prefer to spend it while I can. In other words, here's what I do during Berserk:
- Spamming Shred + FB at the end (granted, SR and Rip have a long duration);
- Spamming Shred + occasionally using FB if I get too many CCs, and I won't be able to dump all of my energy before Berserk ends.Edited: August 21, 2021 Reason: correcting typos
-
Member
Everything you're saying is making a ton of sense to me. I appreciate you going into so much detail. I guess my last question would be this:1); 4) I'm going to be as forthcoming as possible. Please understand, but I'm not in the mood to spend time to do more calculations for other people. Those, which I normally do, regard topics, which are of interest to me (as you'll see further down below). For example, I was curious to see whether switching to arp was going to be worth the trouble and under which circumstances. I don't use rawr; I prefer to do my own calculations and set my own conditions when I try to find tendencies in the dps. I don't know whether you use that program, but in case you don't I'd like to give you an entire list of the formulas that I use. You can use them to calculate YOUR OVVN damage and to get a clear answer regarding the things that CONCERN YOU. You might know them already, but I wanted to post them here just so we are on the same page:Continuing with the first question - yes, it's absolutely correct that arp trinkets don't snapshot our bleeds and that they don't get affected by the target's armour. However, the reason why I mentioned those items in my first two posts was because they popped up quite often in BiS lists (Grim Toll for the Naxx patch and Mjolnir for Ulduar). I'm not the type of person, who hunts BiS items on Frostmourne due to two simple reasons:Spoiler:Show
- the gear lasts only 3 months, which will then be replaced by the one from the next patch;
- the items don't always drop, and there's competition for them in my raids.
This is why the only BiS list, which I respect and know for certain, is the one that contains ICC and RS items. During the other patches, I'm the type of guy who works with whatever I get my paws on.
Once again, if you want to get a definite answer, then the formulas would help you get it. Think about how many AAs, FBs, Shreds, Rip ticks, and Rakes you do on average per minute.
Note: Rip doesn't last 30 seconds. You might have rounded that number up, but in actuality it has 22 seconds (+3 Shreds, but no 2pt7) or 26 seconds (+3 Shreds and 2pt7).
2) Interestingly enough, I've always had the same question. It's true that by lowering our crit, we get less critical strikes, which result in less raw damage and less CPs (=less energy). However, if we have 283 agility from all available gem slots (this includes talents) like in Catisgud's case, then we lose 3.7% crit. This doesn't mean that we will suddenly have 0 crits during fights. It all boils down to RNG, but let me show you how the average outcome would look like.
Imagine that our regular shreds do 5k damage, while our crits 10k (I'm just simplifying evertyhing in this example). If we have 50% crit, and we do 100 shreds, 50 of those would be regular and the other half - critical. On average, we would do (5.000*0.5)+(10.000*0.5)=7.500 damage per Shred. If we have 3.7% less crit, then on average the numbers would look like so: (5.000*.537)+(10.000*.463)=7315, which is admittedly lower than our previous result, but not by a huge margin. And then arp comes into play, which can lower the first number by a great amount to a point where it makes it less attractive.
Let me show you:
So, on average arp prevails just because the damage reduction from the boss's armour is too high. Again, RNG will affect you differently, and sometimes you'd feel that you have less critical strikes than normal. That's why I look at the average results and observe the tendency. If you look at my second post, you'd see that in order for arp to prevail (with all factors taken into consideration; well... except the class buffs), you need to do X amount of Shreds per minute to gain that small dps increase. This is why I gave you the formulas above - so that you can see it for yourself how much damage you do depending on the number of attacks per minute, so you see whether switching to arp would be worth in YOUR CASE.
3) See this?
FB consumes additional energy (up to 30 REGARDLESS IF YOU HAVE A CC PROC OR/AND BERSERK IS UP), and it gives you a pathetic dps at the end. This energy could have been used for another ability. If you don't mind, I'm going to calculate it here myself:
Let me show you what I see:
- if we ignore the extra energy consumption from FB, we see that one FB (18 energy) is far greater than any Shred (21 energy). So, if we have <20 energy, we should definitely use FB.
- If we consider the extra energy consumption from FB (let's say 24), we will see that 2 Shreds (42 energy) are better than one FB (42).
- However, more realistically the FB will consume 30 energy. In that case, the damage from one FB (48 energy) is better than 2 Shreds (42 energy).
- DISCLAIMER: After using an ability, we trigger a GCD, which lasts one second and regenerates 10 energy. I'm going to showcase a hypothetical example if we have 50 energy, 5 CPs, and only 6 seconds of Berserk:
1st case: 1xFB (48 en) + 2 Shreds
2nd case: 1xFB (18 en) + 4 Shreds
Let's imagine that in the 2nd case, we actually did 3 Shreds due to latency issues and/or human error. Let's compare the damage:
12575+12512 vs 10521 + 18768
25k <29k
As you can see, there's a reason why some people spam Shred. I'm also part of this group, but from time to time I use FB with 50% or 100% energy. VVhy? VVhen? Here's how I play - I am a player, who tries to be as energy efficient as possible, because more energy gives us more Shreds. The cases, when I use FB with a lot of energy, are ONLY THOSE when I have lucky CC procs, and I AM CERTAIN that I won't be able to use my energy to its fullest. It would be wasted once Berserk ends anyway, so I prefer to spend it while I can. In other words, here's what I do during Berserk:
- Spamming Shred + FB at the end (granted, SR and Rip have a long duration);
- Spamming Shred + occasionally using FB if I get too many CCs, and I won't be able to dump all of my energy before Berserk ends.
During an ARP trinket proc (grim toll/Runestone) would you swap to FB, even if it means losing out on a few seconds of rip?
-
Forum Veteran
I'm glad to help you, mate. :)
In order to answer your question, I'll use the numbers of our example kitty. Let's see how much his arp would increase under the effect of the trinkets:
53.7% arp
= 1332 arp (95% arp) from Grim Toll [DA = 0.9566]
= 1386 arp (99% arp) from Mjolnir (DA=0.975)
If we imagine that he has 7078 AP, 50% crit, and Grim Toll, his FB would look like this:
Same AP and crit, but now with Mjolnir:FB (critical) = 14943 (74% to occur);
FB (normal) = 6594 (26% to occur);
FB (average) = 12772 (average)
Rip will also include two scenarios. In the first one, we won't use the idol:FB (critical) = 15230 (74% to occur);
FB (normal) = 6721 (26% to occur);
FB (average) = 13018 (average)
while here we will:VVithout the idol
Rip (normal tick) = 1626
Rip (crit tick) = 3684
Rip (average tick)= 2655
VVith idol
Rip (normal tick) = 1825
Rip (crit tick) = 4135
Rip (average tick)= 2980
Knowing all of this, we can divide FB by both types of Rip ticks and see how many we can afford to sacrifice:
Grim Toll
12772:2655=4.8
12772:2980= 4.2
In other words, in both of these cases you can afford sacrifice up to 4 Rip ticks or 8 seconds its duration.
Mjolnir
13018:2655=4.9
13018:2980=4.68
Same conclusions here.
[Edit] VVas that "you" in your last question directed at me (i.e. were you interested in what I would have done), or were you asking what the average player would do?
-> If it's the first case, then I wouldn't hesitate to bite my target if I have the opportunity to do it. Some people know that I use a GotVV macro, which allows me to force CC procs (most of the time), so I have ways to go back on track w/o that big of a loss.
-> If it's the second case - then... I guess some people wouldn't want to risk losing damage, especially if they don't have TF and don't expect RNG to give them CC procs. So, you have to ask yourself whether you can bite the boss and be able to regain 5 CPs for Rip before it's too late.Edited: August 21, 2021 Reason: correcting the average values for FB
-
Member
makes sense to me. Would you replace a FFF for Grimtoll / Runestone? I always thought FFF was BiS
-
Forum Veteran
VVell... I've given you the formulas. You can use them calculate how much damage on average you do with your attacks for one minute by using your current trinket and how much you'd do with GT/Mjolnir. Don't forget to apply arp to your AAs, Mangles, Shreds, and FBs. Once you do it, you'll get a clear answer. :)
If you're not in the mood to do those calculations, then you can use rawr.
-
Member
I'll do that.
I checked you out on the armory btw. Surprisingly you're running a lot of haste items (belt, bracers, rings, cape) instead of ARP and gemmed agility instead of ARP. Have you just not gotten the drops you need yet or is that a conscious choice?
-
Forum Veteran
Unfortunately, I have not. I do have Mjolnir, and today I got the arp belt, but I am missing a lot of items before I transition to arp. Those include but are not limited to:
- Dreambinder from Freya 25 hm;
- VVrist from XT 10 hm;
- Neck from Freya 10 hm;
- Rings (Ignis 25nm; Razorscale 10nm)
VVith my current gear, I have 13% arp, and that's nowhere near enough to even consider using Fractured gems. Before you ask, yes, I did the math, and the results weren't pleasant. I'm better off running agility gems for now. It is what it is.Edited: August 22, 2021
-
Forum Veteran
Small bump. I just decided to see how long the delay is. Turns out, it's not 1 sec (=GCD) but actually 2. So, if anyone reads this, please don't change your idols in combat. ty
[edit] Actually, if someone wants to do it, then he/she should do it 2 seconds before casting the desired ability. However, personally I wouldn't do it, because it has the potential to prevent me from utilising CCs (imagine that you miss on some procs if they get triggered by DoTs and/or AAs during the 2-second time window). It's just something to keep in mind, and you need to consider whether the risk is worth the hassle.Edited: September 8, 2021
Quote
