1. 2 Weeks Ago  

    Please reconsider/tweak the november 2 changelog modifications to the BG bracets

    Suggestion in short:
    Please refine the drastic, extreme measures aimed at "lower braceting" 80's that have been introduced since mid October, 2021. Please allow what you refer to as twinking on the lower gear bracets be continued, even if this implies any non-drastic penalties to twinks. At least in the mid bracet.

    Suggestion detailed and explained:
    Recently, some changes hit a small community of players very hard, and was successful in first, greatly disrupting what has become part of the game, and secondly, resulting in "unique" responses that suggest a long-term ongoing conflict between intentions. Twink-category characters of twink-category players are again, and perhaps will, for the unforseeable future, still be present in the two affected bracets, while it has unquestionably become far more time-consuming of the more dedicated ones to represent themselves.

    The changes to the BG system I am referring to is what has been vaguely discussed in the changelog of November 2:

    [...]
    Battlegrounds

    [...]
    Reworked the Gear brackets on level 80, they will now be more fair especially for lower geared players
    Implemented more anti-twinking measures on the lower Gear Brackets
    Prevent non-seasonal Blackrock characters from entering the lower gear brackets
    [...]

    One of the main fundamental backgrounds for my arguement lies in a widely and openly stated staff viewpoints:

    "Battlegrounds were never meant to be fair, and a multitude of suggestions aiming at any form of incorporated fairness have been turned down."

    So, why us? Are we beyond "not fair?"

    Our "community" is far too scarce to even be deemed an "organized", "functioning" one (such as, say lvl 19, 60, 70, 79, etc twinks, a number of whom actively communicate with their opposite faction counterparts as friends), we mostly know each other by performance and the occasional /wave and armory checks. Very seldom are the known examlpes of 2-3 players partying up - nearly everyone is a solo player, doing what they enjoy. More importantly though, we have become quite balanced out by september. There is a nearly identical amount of these 80-twinks in BG's: "faction dedicated"
    players are heavily balanced out by mercing ones - and we quite often end up nuking the living life out of each other and have a good laugh about it in SW afterwards. The extent of this goes as far as having achieved NO active pvp guilds, NO known 2-man-plus premades, and only TWO instances of a multiboxer appearing for an observable (and in both cases, moving on) in either lower geared bracet TO DATE. If anything in warmane's realms of pvp, these two bracets have been considered to be both fair and nostalgic.

    Having twinks in an ungeared and mostly unskilled bracet may sound unfair at first, with an undeniable truth that we DO have a better chance at achieving whatever we want than a full-green player.
    However...
    - BOTH sides have us, nearly equally, with mercenary mode actually working as a balancing factor. Any part of the day, in nearly any BG. With even the initial "daytime: Alliance, evening: Horde victories" phases being blurred. You do NOT get evened-out matches at this rate in the BiS bracet. One-side, bracet-famous premades vs 10/15/40 randoms, one-sided co-joining multiboxers, etc... up to date you didn't have either mainstreamed in lower bracets, and the only reason we even dare bring our issues to the forums now (and thus, potentially alerting any unwanted attention of said groups) is because after the changes, we literally spend as much time creating chars and accounts as we play the bracets.
    - Doesn't multiboxing sound just as unfair? It is still allowed, despite all real or believed damage it causes, to exist. Currently, they can appreciate an official praise from staff, with any limitations being "unfortunate". "We also understand that it takes skill to be a multiboxer. Just setting up multiple programs and macros and making your set-up run normally requires a lot more than what a normal player does. We also understand that it is not easy to be a multiboxer, with both limitations of the battlegrounds that they have at their disposal and of course with the increased negativity of the community as of late." (Direct quote from Proterean). In what way are we twinks (fundamentally) different (apart from understanding and operating an external software on a rig that may be fit to mine bitcoins)? "Ensuring both multiboxing to exist and to ensure at least some modicum of fairness in the gameplay:" - Why can't we recieve a nearly identical sentence, with just multiboxing changed to lower-gear-bracet-twinking?
    - Doesn't premade-play sound just as unfair? It is still allowed and encouraged - WoW is focused and built around team organising, in all game aspects. Any party successful at this is only to be praised and appreciated - and any who abuse the merc system are not only not considered a deviant behaviour to also be dealt with, but are only met with further comments "why play solo? Why the QQ? Join them, git gud.". Why does this not apply to a simple, quickly-obtainable character type controlled by a player who for whatever reason, wants to play differently, and stay where he feels comfortable, without breaking any rules?

    I am unclear of any moral highground (apart from having every right to do so developer-side), OR any widespread twink-related occurance which may have resulted in a gamestyle being targeted for COMPLETE ANNIHILATION. (There may be one single related issue that comes to mind, but the actions and incredible feats of one particular Paladin-player who posted these on the forum, and who may have probably recieved reports regarding his play should not in any way be linked to,- or result in collective punishment, deserved or not, to an entire community, but instead be observed as a special, unique case of that player) I would like to remind the fact that up to date, There are far more complaints on the forum about multiboxers and premades than "80 twinks or any of the correlating metaphores", yet they are allowed to strive.

    What did we do to, after such a long time to get the banhammer? How do we disrupt the game more than any other known "nuissance" of lvl 80 BG pvp to recieve not limitations, but complete erasing - and that even in a non-direct, subtle manner of three lines in the changelog instead of a website-headline, like the multiboxer teams being reduced to 5-man groups at maximum?

    One of the main reasons that we "twinks" share for staying mid and low is because we want to avoid the horrors a solo player faces in BiS (multiboxing, premades, scripters by the many). Yes, there weren't bracets back in original WOTLK. But after the vast amounts of related arguments on the forum here, there weren't warmane-specific occurances either that determine the current BG landscape here. Low-gear-bracet twinking is NOT (just) about sealclubbing/GY camping. There is a far more efficient and CHEAPER way to do that: level up, join a pvp guild, and premade till dusk. There's a reason none of our community's members made it in the top 50 HK farmers on Icecrown, or on Lordaeron (while the latter has at least two 79's making the grade, although that twink bracet is also a non-24/7-operating one). It's because you don't join and wait 10-15 minutes to have a GY-fest and kill the bracet for an hour. We actually have fun. Sorry about that.

    Specific suggestions:
    - Generally, in both low and mid bracet, allow twinks (a.k.a. permanent participants of the bracet) with openly stated gear-limitations of 1 tier lower-than-bracet-maximum to keep playing. Say, in "furious season" (patch 3.1.1.9806) only items of or prior to the "deadly season" (patch 3.0.2.8962) may be owned and accessible by any character wishing to be exempt from "anti twink measures". Ownership of any non-compatible item would immediately suspend "anti twink measure immunity", but this occurance can be reversed by permanently losing access to the item (destroying it, dropping it, selling it and relogging, etc). Seasonal changes to bracets also apply.
    - Although already an eybrow-raiser, okay, exclude twinks from low-bracet if you must. Leave that to TRULY new characters...Keep any anti-twink measures you can come up with operational. Though never perfect and exceptions will always occur, most of us would happily agree to leave that zone a "no fly zone".
    - Return the mid-bracet to what it was in mid-October. There is no sane explanation to how a "new player" (NOT a new character) can get into mid-gear without any form of dedication or previous experience. (IRL Purchase of goods in a quantity sufficient for qualification into the bracet already suggests dedication - to the extent that typical high-end gearing may instantly result in actually BiS bracet MM, such as a SHM-purchase. In-game, auction-house purchases also suggest a background of financial experience by another character of the given player or family member.) The symbiosis of Icecrown, Lordaeron, and (unabused) fresh Blackrock characters never meant a problem, and when finally reaching our content, Frostmourne wouldn't have either. The mid-bracet had perhaps the most balance, with all participants having some combination of skill and gear, where twinks would still stand out, but actual "solo carry" heroes rarely emerged - since in most cases, the opposition had twinks, too. Also, it should be noted that the average BG had 1-2 twinks for 10 players in this bracet (not counting fresh Blackrock players who could be of any skill level before and if we would get to know them).
    - Please communicate in detail any specific changes to bracet MM. Subtle and silent countermeasures against a long-existing phenomenon instead of openly condemning us isn't only as unfair as not targeting other "advantage-maximizing pvp endeavours" - it's perhaps more unfair. At this point, I'm not even sure precisely WHAT is intended to being abolished.
    - Creating a safe haven in any bracet could, for some part be desirable, but to achieve this, secure it from everything that can hurt a new player. No twinks, but also no multiboxers, no premades, perhaps even removing party joining. Or, accordingly and equally limit them.


    Especially, regarding the first suggestion, but in general, the entire issue at hand, I would like to repeat two sentences from earlier on:
    "Ensuring both multiboxing to exist and to ensure at least some modicum of fairness in the gameplay:" - Why can't we recieve a nearly identical sentence, with just multiboxing changed to lower-gear-bracet-twinking?

    3 weeks from now, a new season dawns on Frostmourne. This may be a good time to communicate about what exactly happened. It would also be greatly appreciated if constructive comments would keep the thread on rails, please don't troll with "just go level up and premade if you want to hk-farm" or "BG's were meant to be unfair. BOOM-you're out of your game, all of you. There's your share of unfairness, dear 80 twinkorwhatevers." On the other hand, giving us true insight to how we have proven to be more damaging than any other BG phenomenon to be awarded with such a targeted response, or how any agreement could be achieved would all be welcome.
    Edited: 1 Week Ago Reason: fixed a few typos (2021.11.25., 02:45)

  2. 1 Week Ago  
    There is no such thing as a level 80 twink....

  3. 1 Week Ago  
    There is no such thing as a level 80 twink....
    By definition, there isn't.

    However, as of November 2, whatever the following sentence means...

    "Implemented more anti-twinking measures on the lower Gear Brackets"

    ...has affected us. Whatever we are called (lowerbraceteers, 80 twinks, pvp analphabetics, cowards), it was precisely directed at what we do, and had strong results.

    Edit: So to avoid confusion of the masses, I took the liberty of simplification of referring to ourselves as twinks, as well. Which phrase actually best sums up how such a character functions, despite at least two distinct differences from by-definition twinks.
    Edited: 1 Week Ago

  4. 1 Week Ago  
    By definition, there isn't.

    However, as of November 2, whatever the following sentence means...

    "Implemented more anti-twinking measures on the lower Gear Brackets"

    ...has affected us. Whatever we are called (lowerbraceteers, 80 twinks, pvp analphabetics, cowards), it was precisely directed at what we do, and had strong results.

    Edit: So to avoid confusion of the masses, I took the liberty of simplification of referring to ourselves as twinks, as well. Which phrase actually best sums up how such a character functions, despite at least two distinct differences from by-definition twinks.
    So, maybe get the hint that they don't want you doing that? Because it sounds like all you are doing is exploiting their bracket system. I don't care what lingo you conjuer up to try and make what you do seem legitimate but it isn't. There is no such thing as an 80 twink or a "lowerbraceteer". This all sounds like pure nonsense.

  5. 1 Week Ago  
    So, maybe get the hint that they don't want you doing that? Because it sounds like all you are doing is exploiting their bracket system. I don't care what lingo you conjuer up to try and make what you do seem legitimate but it isn't. There is no such thing as an 80 twink or a "lowerbraceteer". This all sounds like pure nonsense.
    If a blackrock seasonal player can start with fully geared pvp set, and continue playing without upgrading gears in order to stay in the lower bracket. Why ICC players doing so are being punished?

    And yes, I agree with you there is no such thing as twink because we are not twink; we are just NOT willing to upgrade our gears. And we got punished by that?

    I mean even if warmane wants to punish us:
    Please consider putting us in bracket that is one level higher, not directly in the bis brackets.

  6. 1 Week Ago  
    So, maybe get the hint that they don't want you doing that? Because it sounds like all you are doing is exploiting their bracket system. I don't care what lingo you conjuer up to try and make what you do seem legitimate but it isn't. There is no such thing as an 80 twink or a "lowerbraceteer". This all sounds like pure nonsense.
    - We got that hint perfectly clearly. And it caught us with complete surprise - read both related threads again for the why's. This is what we would like to communicate about, and try to clear up whatever caused this.

    - I am happy you do not care about what term is used for whatever this is, since you seem to have grasped the phenomenon itself without any necessary terminology. As I sad, I'm having troubles grasping exactly what category we fall or are forced to fall into. See below.

    - I, we would be very happy if developers also took to their hearts your arguement that "There is no such thing as an 80 twink or a "lowerbraceteer"". I would be perfectly satisfied with just being called a normal player who has no newly-created distinction to any other player's character such as "more HK's, more played BG's, more BG time, whatever". As long as I'm wearing the same gear as others, I want to play with or against them - as long as there's a system in the game providing just this (warmane-specific braceting of lvl 80 players according to gear).

    -No, we are not exploiting anything. These bracets have been around with variable specifications for over a year, maybe two now. I would like you to bring to my attention any thread where any official statement has come of "this" being a serious issue, needing dealing with. Topics are very scarce, and if any I've seen still exist, primarily focus on either Frostmourners being matched up with far higher geared Blackrockers and occasionally others, or on Blackrock being generally to OP for anything. The first arguement has resulted in constantly adjusted "seasonal Blackrock characters", the second has been disregarded consistently due to the gear being complemented by underwhelming skill.

    - Again, we are not, and have not been exploiting a single thing. To the extent that there isn't even a "hard cap" of gear between bracets. In the past months the three bracets have been fine-tuned to the extent that there is a large margin of "fuzziness" when joining up for a BG (at least until "anti twink measures" got implemented): after you reach a very average gear rating in the mid bracet, you would start being called to BiS games with some percent margin. The higher your gear, the more often this would happen. Essentially, to be have a 100% chance to remain in the mid bracet, you had to be wearing Deadly - class gear in an environment of Relentless - class chars. If you had a fresh, Relentless Blackrock player (approx. 5600 gs), your chances of mid-bracet were near to 20%. Removing the Rele weapon for a blue would down you to the lower 5000's, and your chances of mid braceting were around 70%. Shortly, to have a safe spot in your bracet, you weren't supposed to even come close to maximizing your gear. Any overshooting was a matter of personal taste: you simply had to accept a percentage of being uptiered as a price.

    - I also consider this whole thing a pure nonsense. The anti twink measures, that is.

  7. 1 Week Ago  
    If a blackrock seasonal player can start with fully geared pvp set, and continue playing without upgrading gears in order to stay in the lower bracket. Why ICC players doing so are being punished?

    And yes, I agree with you there is no such thing as twink because we are not twink; we are just NOT willing to upgrade our gears. And we got punished by that?

    I mean even if warmane wants to punish us:
    Please consider putting us in bracket that is one level higher, not directly in the bis brackets.
    Hey Joe! I fully agree with what you and Barbq said in the other thread. I also commented with a wall of text, but got removed due to being off topic, and rightfully so as I actually brought my idea there which in essence can be considered a different suggestion. However, perhaps a merged thread may be in order as any and all suggestions to the three bracets in their current state address the same problem: Any positive adjustment to the questionable anti twink measures would be welcome at this point.

    In all honesty, I'd like to see them gone, as there was really nothing to fix in the first place.

  8. 1 Week Ago  
    ByeByeBaby, thank you for trying to save lvl 80 twink comunity.

    Me personally, I own multiple twinks across levels and I enjoyed most lvl 80 lower-bracket twinking by far. Sadly I havent even fully upgraded my twink Brutine yet and changes moved her right against 6k gs players. All the time, work and money spent on getting the right gear for the bracket is now wasted.

    I hope there will be at least some possibility to create another twink suitable for new requirements. I own some high geared characters too, but exactly as you said: premades, mboxers and other things make me rarely log BGs with my high geared toon.

    P.S. I am horde and I have my mercenary mode on since like 2015 and I cant even remember last time it actually made me play aliance.

  9. 1 Week Ago  
    Point of brackets being created is to make BGs fair - to avoid pairing up BiS people against lowbies because that's what people complained about (getting ****stomped by BiS players).
    What you're asking is to basically be allowed to be the BiS guy and ****stomp lowbies. Sure, it's to a smaller extent but it's the same thing nonetheless. Why would they EVER revert this change?
    They've been making tweaks to brackets since the moment they were introduced to prevent the very thing you're arguing should be allowed.

    January 20th, 2021 devlog:
    A few days ago we adjusted the way battlegrounds are bracketed at level 80. Previously we had two brackets, the 'low gear' and' high gear' brackets as we call them. However, we noticed there was still a major imbalance even within these brackets. Players with absolute starter gear, were playing with or against players with decent but not end-game gear, full season 6 PvP gear for example. Obviously this is not ideal and we wanted to do something about that.
    As always, we are keeping a close eye on the new matchmaking system and are constantly finetuning the system. We want to see everyone having a fighting chance in battlegrounds, no matter how good or bad your character is geared.
    This ought to show you they don't want twinks and imbalances between players and their gear.
    Edited: 1 Week Ago

  10. 1 Week Ago  
    This suggestion has been denied. Ironbible and Thorbjorn said everything.

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