Hello,
I'm creating an Unholy DK and it seems Orcs would be ideal since it has many racials that can bolster its DPS. However, I love the aesthetics of the Forsaken. My question is, how much of a difference would the racials of the Orc make compared to Forsaken?
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Member
Orc DK DPS Difference
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Member
I don't think you won't get invited just because you're undead, as long as you play good.
Racials aren't game breaking, with the exception of human for pvp.
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Member
^ What? Orc is better than any race as horde for playing dk handsdown, extra expertise and racial ap boost, plus pets are also stronger as orc.
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Loremaster
And troll still wins overall because Berserking is op.
@OP Play what race you want/like,yes,there is a difference for racials,but overall nobody in the right mind will give a **** about what race you choose as long as you perform decently.
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Forum Veteran
Haste as a stat or "racial" for trolls will increase more in dps when you have bis gear especially, Trolls have been proven to have the best racial for everyone because of how good haste will become when your at max gear, even on classes like Warrior.
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Member
Wrong, once you average out the haste you gain from troll active it doesn't outweigh what you get from orcs, i can trade 5 expertise alone from my gear and make it up in raw ap or even haste just to prove a point and that is just one of the benefits of being an orc.
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Member
Unholy DK's have Summon Gargoyle which snapshots haste as you know, which is why you can't just look at the average haste. Then again i'm not going to sim it to see the math, i'm just pulling this out of my ***
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Loremaster
Unholy should have no expertise on gear.
Blood can cap expertise and arp,and performs better as troll.
Frost also performs better as troll.
Berserking is the best pve racial,hands down.
Gargoyle indeed snapshots,same for DRW.
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Member
You are basing it off a short fight, any extended fights an orc will pull ahead, many sims have been done.
Frost doesn't perform better as troll, i've been playing fdk on this server since moltdown and i can 100% tell you no troll in a 25icchc raid has ever pulled out on top.
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Member
Well the Op asked if it's game breaking if he doesn't go orc and choose undead instead.
I don't know precisely what's the difference between orc and troll dps wise and how much will he lose if he goes undead, but I've never heard someone being kicked out of the group for not being an orc.
The only real gamebreaking racial is the human free trinket one, and that applies for pvp only. In PvE you'll just lose some dps.
So my point was - op, if you want to play undead then do it. If you're good with your class in general I doubt you'll have issues except for some hardcore min max players, but those are toxic anyway and you'll be doing yourself a favor.
That's my opinion.
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Member
Seems like you guys forgot that the pet deals 5% more dmg as Orc.
+5% pet dmg, 41 expertice rating and a average of ~46 ap from blood fury is obviously better than a average of 36 haste from troll.
Orc is by far the superior racial!Edited: January 6, 2022
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Loremaster
You're forgetting that for the relevant longer fights(which is basically Anub(somewhat relevant)/PP/Sindra/LK/Halion),you get to use Berserking multiple times as well. Yes,if you're simming(though dk is a ***** to do so) a fight where the time is specifically between two uses of Blood Fury and one use of Berserking,orc wins by a slight amount,but the longer fights can easily go into multiple Berserking uses.
As for your "i've never been beaten by a troll on frost" comment,you do realize each player has a different situation going on at all times(fps,latency,personal skill,procs rng)? You never use other players for comparison for the reasons listed.
The +5% pet damage is nigh irrelevant outside unholy,your army and summoned ghoul are hitting like wet noodles for the other two specs(and then there's the fact that with the recent Army taunt fix,you can't even army in some phases,like LK phase 1,transition phase,or a little while after transition if there's a spirit still up because army can taunt summoned creatures aka ghouls,shamblings and spirits).
To give you an idea,my alt orc(for aesthetics only,i dislike troll's toes and running animation) unholy dk's pet's 5% damage on my last nm run Halion is ~8.9k. My avg (non crit) melee is 4.2k(gear is a mix of 264 and 277 pieces,with 277 Cryptmaker due to bad luck on Bryntroll/shards). So if i had two extra autoattacks(which i would with Berserking for that fight),my damage increase alone would almost meet the pet increase,and that is without Bryntroll/Shadowmourne,those two would skew the results way more towards haste/attack speed due to their procs. So you see,while the pet increase is beneficial,it falls into the same pit as it does for bm hunters - your personal damage far outweighs the pet's damage. The main difference is,you don't "suffer" from gemming for arp to increase your personal damage unlike meme hunters do,but as you can see,even with the STR/STR+haste gemming for unholy,your personal damage can easily overtake even with medium gearing.
5 expertise is actually ~38.4 expertise rating,so around 1 jc gem's worth(which you should have if you're really minmaxing). And each spec weighs expertise differently,for example unholy values it way less than frost or blood. And even as frost/blood,the value of haste improves greatly with gear.
As for AP,no,while haste has less total amount,it's value per point is higher than AP. Example(unholy): AP value is generally around half of STR,because STR gives 2 AP per point,and it has more % increase through buffs and talents(+7% from talents,+10% through kings),while AP only gets a 10% increase(Abomination's Might/Unleashed Rage/Trueshot Aura). STR's value is ~3.10,haste's is ~2.87. So ~1.6(because AP scales worse than STR)x46=73.6 vs ~2.87x36=103.32. It's crude math(and it's for unholy),but as you can see,haste per point is more valuable than ap per point,at least at decent levels of gear(264+).
Now let's say we count expertise as well,which comes off as ~1.52x5=7.6. So orc so far has 81.2 vs 103.32(again,unholy). And remember the fact that the ghoul doesn't scale with AP directly,it scales with your STR(so flat AP gives 0 benefits to the ghoul,however it does benefit gargoyle,but if you want the gargoyle to benefit from multiple Blood Furys,you have to delay it to meet the gargoyle cd,so one on pull,second at 2 mins 46-ish seconds instead of 2mins,etc,while Berserking is up for every single gargoyle).
So yeah,orc racials sound juicy when added together,however they aren't a static value for each spec.
Unholy wants expertise less and flat AP is somewhat less useful due to stat weighs,and the pet damage bonus is negligible.
Frost and blood wants expertise more and benefits from flat AP more,but their pet damage is minuscule.
As for Berserking,while it's value is also not static for each spec,it's higher due to how haste/attack speed works in endgame wrath.
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Member
You are just negating out the fact orc has more benefits as a dk over a troll, you are basing off 1 racial with 50 minute cd as your whole argument. again, i can make up the haste lost from racial talent just by the extra expertise i get from orc and slotting in extra haste gems just to prove a point(again) or get even more dps by going for extra stats in this order: Hit > Strength > Crit > Haste > Armor pen.
No one cares about your gargoyle snapshotting your haste, the majority of your damage will still come from your DK, this is where you argument fails to hold any value.
And i don't even know why people argue about expertise not being important for unholy dks, are you willing to gamble on being dodged? because it happens quite often if you aren't soft capped for expertise and you will do less dps than whatever haste you are hinging on.
Haste for frost dk's really? No, i can tell you right now we do not value that stat that highly, we aim for strength and crit after roughly 240~hit and 26 expertise and 1400 pen at bis levels.Edited: January 7, 2022
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Member
The OP was asking explicitly about UH. Perma ghoul and gargoyl benefit both a lot from the increased pet dmg.
5 expertise translates in to 41 expertise rating. So Axe Specialization is like two extra gem slots.
You need the cap of 26 expertise as Blood and Frost DK. Capping it is as important as the hit cap because otherwise bosses can dodge your melee attacks.
So in other words, the 41 expertise rating has even more value than a equal amount of str or arp.
When you are blood or frost the axe specialization alone already outscales berserking.
As UH expertise is not that important but when you add the increased pet dmg to it, it also outscales berserking.
Even w/o blood fury Orc would already beat troll in terms of dmg. So that's a extra that pushes Orc even further ahead.
It's also worth to mention that 20% melee haste is weaker than 20% spell haste.
-1% Spell Haste = 32.789 Haste Rating
-1% Melee Haste = 25.189 Haste Rating
Troll is a excellent race for casters, such as mage or ele shami, but for any melee spec Orc is the better choice.
And btw, the racials have been simcrafted over a century ago. The answer has always been that Orc is the best. There is realy no need to start this debate from scratch again.Edited: January 7, 2022
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Member
you guys should stop arguing and simply use kahorie's dk simulator for questions like these. and to op, i believe at bis it was something like a 300-500 dps difference (0% buff), but i can't remember. it's not gamebreaking, but it is still a fair bit of dps to be gained, especially when considering less dodges on abilities making your rotation smoother.
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