WotLK Proposal of a new Paladin build: Vampiric Paladin

[Koldwen]

bruh. The entire point of this build is to exercise your own ego. The title, your replies, are convoluted and written with such audacity it is difficult to not shred even more brutally. "Proposition for a NEW build" when you can just say "What do you think of sitting in seal of light as prot paladin?" etc. This is just a lesson in basic human resources. To further illustrate this point, you refer to your description of the build as 'vampiric' as CREATIVE (l m f a o) - I could NOT contain my laughter.

Okay, but on to the actual ideas being discussed here. You can perfectly hold threat? On what 10 man? Even 10 man, I HIGHLY doubt it. Try this dangerous build in a 25 man.

Parry-haste. You swing from side to side saying a lot of noise, not sure WHAT your stance is. You say parry-haste does not matter, but then say that expertise is no problem anyway. Yeah I highly doubt that. Share your defenses (image) WITHOUT seal of vengeance glyph and show us that you have 26/26 which is a massive pain in the butt to have to accrue equipment for when you SHOULD be prioritizing bigger stats such as DEFENSE RATING, HIT RATING, STAMINA and GEM SOCKETS. How can you prio those stats and so easily get exp capped. It's not happening.

Furthermore, parry-haste is pretty much DEFAULT on regular mobs too up until 3.2. Any boss encounter with adds including adds themselves can have parry-haste.

2. Your posts seem to have this premise that seal of light has an incredible amount of healing (it does not), so much so that you are some un-killable genius. Tell me, what theoretical situations Seal of Light makes a difference. How does Seal of Light REALISTICALLY save your life than sitting in any other seal.



Second of all. SECOND OF ALL. You have no f*cking threat in this build. You're not expertised cap, you're not hit capped, you have no sustained holy threat outside of consecration or if you have to get off the boss or the boss runs off platform.

If you are missing all your spells, getting parried/dodged most of your swings, you're getting no procs off of Seal of Light, zero seal damage, Reckoning (you have pathetic crit) just glancing constantly and you SOMEHOW have no threat issues (l m f a o). You expect us to seriously believe that? It's not even undergeared dps at that point, you must be tanking alone in your dream.

If you get triggered by basic reasoning and logic, then I don't get why you even enter into debate. Saying things like "****ing" doesn't make your point more valid.

About capping expertise, have you ever tanked with other classes? Every class can reach expertise without a +10 expertise glyph. And no, I never said that parry-haste doesn't matter.

About the name of this build, is just a name. You don't have to call it that way if you don't want, who cares about that?

And yes, I'm tanking 10 man because I literally hit 80 last friday, and still I already tanked Naxx 10, EoE 10, OS 10 0D, and half Ulduar 10 nm. You can check achievements on armory (Look for "Buitre") if you don't believe me. You keep saying that I don't have threat but results are out there.

About the seal, it makes a difference. All the healing that I can do myself is healing that other healers don't have to do. That means that they can either heal other raid members, or help them with mana.

[angrylol]

Guy asked you to give some examples from your raids, where you would have wiped with "normal" tank build. One scenario where your build is superior without a doubt. You play for a week and think you have found some hidden knowledge, it's funny. You are still going with 2 heals in your 10mans, maybe you should whisper them something like "sorry man, I don't mean to say you are trash healer, I just like this build, so you and dps can go afk/auto attack every 30 secs in encounter, I got it, I'm just that good, been playing for a week".

You are simply going into negative feedback loop,
1. you do ****ty tanking
2. amount you heal yourself just get overhealed on you by healers(wasted mana), because they heal you the same with or w/o seal of light.
3. dps have to watch out for threat
4. raid dps is lower, encounter lasts longer, results in mana problems
5. you have genius idea to make a tank-healer build
6. back to step 1.

Imagine you healer pulling and add or boss from you, because he has some def capped healer-hybrid. You are like wtf, there is literally 0 need for that I can perfectly tank it. That's what you are doing.

Don't get me wrong, maybe you are in some memespec guild where those frost mages and sub rogues can't pull aggro from you, it's all fine and great. I'm actually happy you found what tickles your balls. But lets not pretend this build holds a candle to proper build that works in team where every role can perform fully.

[Beanlord]

Useless pages of arguing. The simple gist of all this, to anyone that doesn't feel like reading random bull****, is that if you

1) aren't speedrunning content (for which you would be forsaking every possible bit of survivability in order to get more damage)
&&
2) have more than enough threat to hold the number 1 spot

then you can use Seal of Light to help out your healers somewhat. It's not a revolutionary concept. It follows the basic principle of any threat over the n1 spot is useless and that if you could take an extra 0.000001% avoid/hp/armor or any other defensive stat over that extra threat, you will.

Very simple and easy to grasp concept that every tank worth their salt should be familiar with. It's not game specific either.

[Koldwen]

Useless pages of arguing. The simple gist of all this, to anyone that doesn't feel like reading random bull****, is that if you

1) aren't speedrunning content (for which you would be forsaking every possible bit of survivability in order to get more damage)
&&
2) have more than enough threat to hold the number 1 spot

then you can use Seal of Light to help out your healers somewhat. It's not a revolutionary concept. It follows the basic principle of any threat over the n1 spot is useless and that if you could take an extra 0.000001% avoid/hp/armor or any other defensive stat over that extra threat, you will.

Very simple and easy to grasp concept that every tank worth their salt should be familiar with. It's not game specific either.

Thank you so much, Beanlord. Finally someone who understand what I tried to explain. You did it very well in just a few lines, but yes, that pretty much sums up what this build aims for.

[angrylol]

Don't lie bro, your build is just the opposite extreme of Beanlords "forsaking every possible bit of survivability in order to get more damage".

[Koldwen]

Don't lie bro, your build is just the opposite extreme of Beanlords "forsaking every possible bit of survivability in order to get more damage".

I guess that some people just need that extra push to help them understand things. Read again what Beanlord wrote.

[OhieMitzen]

The build is lackluster, and some talent point changes would make it better, but there's a problem still.

The healing is lackluster. It can't heal enough to forgo a healer in favor of a DPS in raids.
The talent build is still pretty much the same as every other tank, you've just taken few different talents (or not taken some usable ones). Why not go with the proper build, and use your JoL + SoL to feel important?
With the build, you lack any meaningful quick AoE aggro (LDW, Gunship, BPC kinda, LK). Any bigger AoE DPS will suffer more while taking damage due to aggro, and your heals won't keep them up, other healers have to work extra hard.
You also sacrifice good amount of aggro for Seal of Light heals. Which means you need to be fed ToT MD regularly. Losing ToT extra DMG on DPS.
Lifeward is hardly healing. Would recommend getting another enchant.
Even in RDF, it would just be better (and faster) to take DPS talents and items, and clear it with speed, instead of slow self-heals.

Your examples.

VH HC - There's hardly need to heal. One could argue overall healing would be far less, if you had gone with proper build. You know, more DMG and more mitigation, less damage taken as mobs die faster. Don't get your hopes up, Druid heals with HoT's, since there's no significant DMG to be taken in VH, Druid can just use a HoT and AFK and let it run its course.

OS10 0D - You were fighting with Hpala for JoL. Why bother? So your JoL heals could be added to Hpala's, or other way around. Without JoL your healing would've been far less. Your healing wasn't much, and you would've needed less healing, if the boss died quicker, but you opted to do small crumbs of healing instead.

Naxx - JoL carrying heals, yet again. Too bad there's no specified spells to see what exactly healed you and for how much. DK healed 1M, as part of their regular tanking, without sacrificing anything for it.

[angrylol]

Oh thanks, I misunderstand things as much as the next guy. But what he said was not a praise for your guide, unless you made self-heal tank guide to tell us "build your tank as you need it". Which makes me wonder why you wrote blankets and blankets, instead of those 7 words.

[Levvy]

Kolden Kolden KOLDEN. My friend with zero-awareness

First of all, this whole thread is about YOUR build built around sitting statically in Seal of Light, rather than adjusting for bosses with a bevy of utility tools (AKA the paladin class) such as utility talents, other seals, and damage. In order to do this, you lose 10 expertise, seal of command cleave, AS slow, around 500 dps, AP debuff, and the cherry on top, Hand of Salvation (sabotaging your raid). In return, you have to waste time getting expertise or neglecting it entirely, and no extra benefits aside from Reckoning procs of Seal of Light. Reckoning procs of glancing, parried, and dodged white damage.So EVEN IF threat is SOMEHOW not an issue, is it worth it to sacrifice all of that for a few extra procs of Seal of Light? What?

You call this a debate when this is actually an education. Is the Earth flat? Is that a debate? If you believe it is, then that's all that needs to be said and you can stop talking.

Instead, with the insight and ego of a freshman at university, after ONE WEEK of raiding decide to WRITE YOUR OWN GUIDE about a class you barely understand.

You say all the right things, "oh I understand the criticism", "oh ad hominem, he swore!", waiting for the slightest statement for you to virtue signal and play the victim card rather than to actually understand the criticisms at the foundation of your ideas. So don't try and stand on your little hill like you are this pure bastion of knowledge trying to help other players. No. You are only interested in feeding your ego.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe someone who just hit 80 and barely started to grow his whiskers shouldn't be someone writing guides? Does that not seem like a red flag in literally any other circumstance?

What was the problem even to begin with that needed this alternate solution for a Sit-in-Seal-of-Light build? You have yet to even explain a situation where this build would somehow outperform literally any other traditional or well-rounded protection paladin build.

Also, Beanlord said a very neutral statement, and you are using it as AMMUNITION to defend the idea that you are right and everyone else is wrong? Excuse me?

[Koldwen]

Kolden Kolden KOLDEN. My friend with zero-awareness

First of all, this whole thread is about YOUR build built around sitting statically in Seal of Light, rather than adjusting for bosses with a bevy of utility tools (AKA the paladin class) such as utility talents, other seals, and damage. In order to do this, you lose 10 expertise, seal of command cleave, AS slow, around 500 dps, AP debuff, and the cherry on top, Hand of Salvation (sabotaging your raid). In return, you have to waste time getting expertise or neglecting it entirely, and no extra benefits aside from Reckoning procs of Seal of Light. Reckoning procs of glancing, parried, and dodged white damage.So EVEN IF threat is SOMEHOW not an issue, is it worth it to sacrifice all of that for a few extra procs of Seal of Light? What?

You call this a debate when this is actually an education. Is the Earth flat? Is that a debate? If you believe it is, then that's all that needs to be said and you can stop talking.

Instead, with the insight and ego of a freshman at university, after ONE WEEK of raiding decide to WRITE YOUR OWN GUIDE about a class you barely understand.

You say all the right things, "oh I understand the criticism", "oh ad hominem, he swore!", waiting for the slightest statement for you to virtue signal and play the victim card rather than to actually understand the criticisms at the foundation of your ideas. So don't try and stand on your little hill like you are this pure bastion of knowledge trying to help other players. No. You are only interested in feeding your ego.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe someone who just hit 80 and barely started to grow his whiskers shouldn't be someone writing guides? Does that not seem like a red flag in literally any other circumstance?

What was the problem even to begin with that needed this alternate solution for a Sit-in-Seal-of-Light build? You have yet to even explain a situation where this build would somehow outperform literally any other traditional or well-rounded protection paladin build.

Also, Beanlord said a very neutral statement, and you are using it as AMMUNITION to defend the idea that you are right and everyone else is wrong? Excuse me?

1. I'm not even gonna answer what you wrote, because you've just written exactly the same things before and I've already answered them.

2. I'm not using what Beanlord said as "ammunition", and I'm aware that he's not in favor of what i wrote, I just said that, finally, someone understood what this build covers.

[Koldwen]

Oh thanks, I misunderstand things as much as the next guy. But what he said was not a praise for your guide, unless you made self-heal tank guide to tell us "build your tank as you need it". Which makes me wonder why you wrote blankets and blankets, instead of those 7 words.

I'm aware it was not a praise, and I'm not looking for praises either. And yes, you have to build you tank as need it, the same as any other class or role.

For example, if you are part of a guild core and one important buff is missing, and you can provide it changing a bit your talents, then you should do it because it would be better for the raid. What this build does is exactly that. Its pointless to go for more dps if you already can hold threat and you are not a hardocre-raider, so you should focus on survivability instead to make your healers job easier.

[angrylol]

I'm bummed out, I thought it's gona be some whacky build when you go no heals, do self heal plus retri and enha instaheals or something, to stomp bosses in 60 seconds. So I'm just cranky you see

[Koldwen]

The build is lackluster, and some talent point changes would make it better, but there's a problem still.

The healing is lackluster. It can't heal enough to forgo a healer in favor of a DPS in raids.
The talent build is still pretty much the same as every other tank, you've just taken few different talents (or not taken some usable ones). Why not go with the proper build, and use your JoL + SoL to feel important?
With the build, you lack any meaningful quick AoE aggro (LDW, Gunship, BPC kinda, LK). Any bigger AoE DPS will suffer more while taking damage due to aggro, and your heals won't keep them up, other healers have to work extra hard.
You also sacrifice good amount of aggro for Seal of Light heals. Which means you need to be fed ToT MD regularly. Losing ToT extra DMG on DPS.
Lifeward is hardly healing. Would recommend getting another enchant.
Even in RDF, it would just be better (and faster) to take DPS talents and items, and clear it with speed, instead of slow self-heals.

Your examples.

VH HC - There's hardly need to heal. One could argue overall healing would be far less, if you had gone with proper build. You know, more DMG and more mitigation, less damage taken as mobs die faster. Don't get your hopes up, Druid heals with HoT's, since there's no significant DMG to be taken in VH, Druid can just use a HoT and AFK and let it run its course.

OS10 0D - You were fighting with Hpala for JoL. Why bother? So your JoL heals could be added to Hpala's, or other way around. Without JoL your healing would've been far less. Your healing wasn't much, and you would've needed less healing, if the boss died quicker, but you opted to do small crumbs of healing instead.

Naxx - JoL carrying heals, yet again. Too bad there's no specified spells to see what exactly healed you and for how much. DK healed 1M, as part of their regular tanking, without sacrificing anything for it.

1. You're right, Lifeward is pretty low healing. Thats why I said that both Lifeward and Blood Draining are just for build fantasy (or if you don't want to waste Mongoose on a bad weapon).

2. About the RDF, its up to what you want to play. If you like to speed run things, then yeah, you should go for the classic build. If you like self-healing, this is more suitable.

3. The reason why you don't go with the proper build and use Seal of Light, is because that's not the point of the normal build. The point of the classic build is to get as much threat as possible. The point of this build is to get as much healing income as possible.

4. As I said several times, if you have problems with threat, then just go for the classic build. If you have more than enough threat, then its pointless to go for more unless you want to speed run things.

5. About the OS10 0D, you are right, it doesn't matter who cast it. I wanted to use Judgement of Light to better see how much I can heal myself, nothing else. About killing it faster, even if it increased my dps by 500 (and that's way too much for the gs that I had) and assuming the fight lasted 6 minutes, it would only be 175k damage, which is good, but it would only save you a few seconds.

6. Again, I just wanted to show how much your self-healing can be, and that's a perfect example as I was the only one using Judgement of Light (so all my self-healing is attributed to me). You can see how much everything healed:

JoL - 3.19 M (I can't calculate how much it healed me, because it also counts healing for raid)
SoL - 683.4k
Lifeward - Neglectable

Of course DK should heal himself more, because thats his entire toolkit (healing himself). What's prettty good is that you can achieve something similar while keeping everyting that a Paladin can offer. For example, his death strikes healed him for 484k (as MT), while my SoL healed me for 683k (as OT).

[Persivaln]

You do realise that DK's Death Stike is used only when he takes damage, instantly restoring his HP with close to 100% efficiency without overhealing? Unlike this joke of "great" healing from Seal + JoL, that just gets lost in overhealing and doesn't serve anything else, due to dedicated healers healing you constantly with spells that restore 40-60% of your HP in one go? Every 2 seconds? What does your "lifeslealing - selfheal" achieve in reality? It can't cover healer, it can't save your life due to how abysmal it heals.

[fdbsfhe4rfar]

Thank you for suggesting this build. interesting idea, i like the idea of a self healing tank pala. great for solo-ing content. though mana is a issue, but one can just switch judgements/seal depending on the situation.