Killing Low level people.

[ghosudazx]

What do you think about that ? The ones Questing . Level 10-60 .

Wpvp keeps the world alive. Wotlk is last wpvp expansion, since Cata has flying mounts in Azeroth. I'd love to see more engagement of wpvp out there. Regular city raids etc.

[harrpaniz1]

You can break it down really simple: You are griefing another human being and enjoying it. If this brings you joy, well that's what kind of man you are. There's no "this is just ingame". There's a really human being on the other side and you are enjoying it, _because_ there is somebody who is suffering. The game is just the vehicle to be a douchebag, not the reason.
The reason probably is, that there's no real consequences for the behavior and you can't live it out in the real world, because there would be.

There's no point in argueing though. They will just come up with something like "it's just a game", "it's part of the game", "I am a lore player" or deflect to further provocation like "I enjoy it even more if you complain about it" so they don't have to talk about the real issue.
Keep in mind: They don't wanna face any consequences, so they will deflect each and any criticism of their actions, be they as valid as they can - After all, they still wanna think of themselves as decent human beings, who only do this, "because it's a game".

Don't get me wrong. I know this is not forbidden ingame, it's even encouraged by the faction thing. To me personally, a gank is just another distraction and a bit of a timeloss. Could be a disconnect, a mob that's too strong or whatever else is out of my control. I won't gank back other lowbies*, I won't ask for others to kill the guy. It's not even tilting me or whatever. The only feeling for players doing it is pitty. I really wouldn't wanna be that pathetic and miserable myself.

Anyways, everybody who needs to bully others to feel better themselves, that's probably rather done in a game than in real life, so keep doing it here.

*The "I was ganked, so now I ganked" makes as much sense as "My parents hit me, so now I hit my children".

The "there is a human on the other side of the screen" argument is so funny to me. Would you say the same in a game of Counter Strike? How can i enjoy killing him over and over, it's another human being? Like yeah, sure, but he accepted the rules just like me.

Anyone who ganks regularly knows that there are consequenses to sitting in low level areas. If you play a twink you will be ganked by a level 80. If you are level 80 you will be ganked by a party. If you are a raid somebody will make a counter raid. People who gank or camp a lot become famous and get a pretty bad rep. There is a player i wont name who has been camping Hellfire towers on and off for like 6 years. This person does not have a good rep if you just google their ingame name. What consequenses would you like these people to face? A permaban because they dare PvP on a PvP server?

If playing PvP makes me a bully then i guess I'm a big bad bully. Technically though, PvE players are worse bullys, cause you don't even kill actual players, you kill NPCs that can't really resist.

[Morvion]

Technically though, PvE players are worse bullys, cause you don't even kill actual players, you kill NPCs that can't really resist.

yea man NPC lives matter!!! kekw
more like pinata slayers than bullies tho. i wonder if pve players would get annoyed if icecrown were pve realm, then someone complaining at forum he cant kill other players on the opposite faction in open world.

[Firnblut]

The "there is a human on the other side of the screen" argument is so funny to me. Would you say the same in a game of Counter Strike? How can i enjoy killing him over and over, it's another human being? Like yeah, sure, but he accepted the rules just like me.

Anyone who ganks regularly knows that there are consequenses to sitting in low level areas. If you play a twink you will be ganked by a level 80. If you are level 80 you will be ganked by a party. If you are a raid somebody will make a counter raid. People who gank or camp a lot become famous and get a pretty bad rep. There is a player i wont name who has been camping Hellfire towers on and off for like 6 years. This person does not have a good rep if you just google their ingame name. What consequenses would you like these people to face? A permaban because they dare PvP on a PvP server?

If playing PvP makes me a bully then i guess I'm a big bad bully. Technically though, PvE players are worse bullys, cause you don't even kill actual players, you kill NPCs that can't really resist.

Yeah, let's compare a pure pvp game that players intentionally join to play against each, with low level ganking in WoW, just because there are players behind the screen. I hope you can see why this is a false equivalence.

Playing PvP doesn't make you a bully. Humans like to compete, that's why they engage in pure PvP games like counterstrike - or in WoW: Arena, BGs, Duels. It is when you strip all challenge from PvP and the only reason you enjoy it becomes griefing another human being which makes you are a bully.
Killing somebody in counterstrike is a different thing, because the very goal of the game is killing the other player*. If you do it over and over, you are winning the game. Killing low level players in WoW is providing no challenge and doesn't win you anything in the game. The only motivation is to grief others.

*I honestly didn't play CS for like 20 years. I'm sure there's ways in CS to grief other players and if you perform them, you are a bully as well.

Give all the excuses you want: If your primary intention is to inflict grief on another human being, you're a douche. And that's true for low level ganking, because there is nothing else to gain. You don't get honor, xp or anything else. It doesn't further your stance in the game. The very nature of low level ganking is competitionless killing of people who can't resist to give them a bad time.
You're not furthering the goals of the alliance, you don't bring justice because "the horde ganked me when I was leveling, so now I am returning the favour", you might be roleplaying, but even if you are, that's no excuse to be a douche.

And to answer to all of your points: I never said there should be harder consequences. I said people acting like that because there are no real consequences. Them getting counterganked or having a bad social standing in a video game are no real consequences.
Idk how to answer your "PvE players. That one is either trolling or stupid. And no, they are not even technically worse bullies, because you can't inflict grief onto an NPC, since they are no persons, they don't have emotions, etc. You probably know that, at least that's what I hope.

[Obnoxious]

You're trying to give reasonable replies to blatant bad-faith "arguments."
My advice is don't waste your time. The only thing worthwhile is the fact we host PvP servers, which is true, and nothing you type will change that in a PvP server all of this is acceptable.

[Firnblut]

You're trying to give reasonable replies to blatant bad-faith "arguments."
My advice is don't waste your time. The only thing worthwhile is the fact we host PvP servers, which is true, and nothing you type will change that in a PvP server all of this is acceptable.

I understand what you are saying and I don't expect to achieve any change to the servers. I knew I created my characters on a PvP server with buffed raids, I won't complain about the server. I'm not telling people to stop ganking low level players either, I probably won't change their behaviour.

I will however answer to "I am doing it for the alliance/because I was ganked when I was low level/it's okay because it's not forbidden". Those are frequently not even excuses made to others, but excuses made to oneself, because very few people are willing to accept that they thrive on griefing/hurting others. But that's essentially what they do. If they are fine with being that kind of a person, that's their business, not mine.

On the other hand I'd like to disagree: Just because something is allowed doesn't mean it's acceptable. One is a legal point, the other one includes a moral point. If you need external restrictions to be a good person, you're probably just not a good person in the first place.

[Obnoxious]

In the context of a PvP server, it's both allowed and acceptable.

You joined without being mislead about it being a PvP server and you are expected to know what a PvP server is, so it's a fully conscious choice. In the case you didn't know what a PvP server is, it's again a fully conscious choice to keep playing there after you found out. By playing in a PvP server you give implicit acceptance of what is liable to happen in a PvP server. There's no "moral point" because you agreed to it by playing there. Would you willingly go to a steakhouse and start complaining you don't want to eat meat and that it's a "morality point" to not be served meat?

[Morvion]

certain morality metric by a certain game dev once mixed into this kind of video game turned women into fruits, becz certain people took video game way too seriously.
just sayin

[harrpaniz1]

Yeah, let's compare a pure pvp game that players intentionally join to play against each, with low level ganking in WoW, just because there are players behind the screen. I hope you can see why this is a false equivalence.

Playing PvP doesn't make you a bully. Humans like to compete, that's why they engage in pure PvP games like counterstrike - or in WoW: Arena, BGs, Duels. It is when you strip all challenge from PvP and the only reason you enjoy it becomes griefing another human being which makes you are a bully.
Killing somebody in counterstrike is a different thing, because the very goal of the game is killing the other player*. If you do it over and over, you are winning the game. Killing low level players in WoW is providing no challenge and doesn't win you anything in the game. The only motivation is to grief others.

*I honestly didn't play CS for like 20 years. I'm sure there's ways in CS to grief other players and if you perform them, you are a bully as well.

Give all the excuses you want: If your primary intention is to inflict grief on another human being, you're a douche. And that's true for low level ganking, because there is nothing else to gain. You don't get honor, xp or anything else. It doesn't further your stance in the game. The very nature of low level ganking is competitionless killing of people who can't resist to give them a bad time.
You're not furthering the goals of the alliance, you don't bring justice because "the horde ganked me when I was leveling, so now I am returning the favour", you might be roleplaying, but even if you are, that's no excuse to be a douche.

And to answer to all of your points: I never said there should be harder consequences. I said people acting like that because there are no real consequences. Them getting counterganked or having a bad social standing in a video game are no real consequences.
Idk how to answer your "PvE players. That one is either trolling or stupid. And no, they are not even technically worse bullies, because you can't inflict grief onto an NPC, since they are no persons, they don't have emotions, etc. You probably know that, at least that's what I hope.

You accepted the rules of this server just like you accepted the rules of Counter Strike. The rules in Counter Strike are that you shoot at eachother, save a hostage or plant a bomb, if somebody dies then that is part of the game and the human behind the screen accepts those rules. In WoW you raid, do dungeons and have battles versus the opposite faction, if somebody dies then that is part of the game and the human behind the screen accepts those rules.

What do you mean strip all challenge? Should battlegrounds versus people with different gear be allowed? What if two people in a battleground have different rating? Is that a challenge? This game isn't about complete fairness, there are going to be inconsistencies because of the two warring factions.

There is no excuses. I gank. I don't have to make excuses. If i twink i get honor, so is it fine when i oneshot levelers on my level one twink just because i get honor?

If getting a bad reputation and getting ganked back isnt consequence enough then what consequence do you propose? Again, I'm curious what changes you would like to see.

[botsen]

I've asked this in another thread (although more like an open question that wasn't addressed to anyone in particular): since there already is the PVP flag system in the game, wouldn't it be possible to build in a function where players can choose to entirely switch off their PVP flag like there is for changing the XP rate?

[Obnoxious]

I've asked this in another thread (although more like an open question that wasn't addressed to anyone in particular): since there already is the PVP flag system in the game, wouldn't it be possible to build in a function where players can choose to entirely switch off their PVP flag like there is for changing the XP rate?

That would make the server not be a PvP one anymore. So, possible? Probably, but not going to happen as the server is meant to be PvP.

[botsen]

Fair enough. Personally I don't understand why players who wanna do PVP can't just do battlegrounds but I guess you guys have more experience running a WoW server than I do. :D
Thanks for replying and thanks for your work!

[harrpaniz1]

Fair enough. Personally I don't understand why players who wanna do PVP can't just do battlegrounds but I guess you guys have more experience running a WoW server than I do. :D
Thanks for replying and thanks for your work!

Why not have both? Its like asking why players who wanna PVE cant do it in an instance or a raid. I think both are possible, wouldn't you agree?

[botsen]

I don't understand your question. Are you asking why people like me don't want to get ganked for no reason?

[harrpaniz1]

I don't understand your question. Are you asking why people like me don't want to get ganked for no reason?

No, im asking why we cant have both? PvP in the world and PvP in bgs, just like we have PvE in raids/dungeons and in the world!
Your argument is that people who want to PVP can just go BG, but cant people who wanna PVE just go dungeon? To me, i think the world should be for everyone, regardless if you wanna PVE or PVP :)