Undead or Blood Elf / Companion

Hello guys. I didn't know where to post this question, but I hope this is the right section to leave it.

I'd like to roll a PVP-oriented rogue in future Lordaeron, but this time I'm tired of Humans, so I'll level a Horde char with my friends. However, I don't know what's better: Arcane Torrent or Will of the Forsaken. Which are your thoughts about this matter? Undead rogue or Blood Elf?

On the other hand, my best friend doesn't know if he prefers leveling a Feral Druid or a Ret Paladin. Any of them would be good for 2v2 in Wotlk? Maybe not for very high rating, but at least for decent playability. Which one would be the best choice, regarding their advantages and disadvantages?

Thanks a lot in advance for your answers!

WotF is much better than Arcane Torrent for a rogue as it's a class that can't afford to sit in CC and Arcane Torrent shares diminishing returns with garrote. At this point, you should probably be weighing WotF against Magic Resistance as a 2% less chance to be hit by all spells on a class that can already talent for an extra 4% is pretty significant, especially since most PvPers don't tend to stack 10% hit just for blood elf rogues/paladins. Overall, undead make better rogues but blood elves have some pretty ridiculous RNG moments.

As for the 2s question, what you're looking at here is two polar extremes. Ferals are an alright spec by default with a high skill cap that allows the player to have a much greater impact on the effectiveness of their class, so a bad feral player would do alright but a good one would be godlike. Rets on the other hand are good by default but due to their low skill cap, the player has much less room to improve the class, so a ret paladin played by a bad player would do good but a ret paladin played by a good player would do slightly better than good.

It all boils down to what kind of player your friend is. If he's an experienced PvP-er that knows what he's doing, a feral druid would allow him to make much better use of his skills. If he's new to the game or doesn't PvP much, a ret paladin is going to compensate for his lack of knowledge.

Thank you for your answer!
My friend has more or less the same experience than me in the game. I'd even say he has good hands. However, he has never (or barely) played a Feral before. Assuming he would gain knowledge through leveling and adapt to the class, is then Feral/Rogue a nice 2v2 combo?

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Originally Posted by Juthglar

is then Feral/Rogue a nice 2v2 combo?

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Absolutely not. It's in fact hard to come up with a worse comp than that. If your aim is to do 2s with your friend, than ret/rogue would work better, albeit still nowhere close to being optimal. Ideally a rogue would like a mage or a priest and a feral would like a healer with a preference for discipline priests.

Well, this might become a long post...

Let's start: First of all, to address the racial question. Arcane torrent is superior in any shape or form, WotF is too much of a dead ability in too many match ups. It was utterly broken in 3.2 when it didn't share a cooldown with your trinket, but the 45sec cd simply breaks the ability. If you have to Will something, chances are you will lose shortly after since you will lack a trinket for nearly a minute. Which is the reason why arcane torrent is better, it offers too much utility to pass up. Even in matchups where the silence effect doesn't come in handy, the energy on use still will assist you with burst, it also allows you to drop vigor as a glyph while still keeping your full burst potential for shadowdances (you would lack 10 energy to do the last ambush during a burst, unless you glyph for vigor). The 2% chance to be missed by shadow spells vs 2% spell miss in general doesn't even require an explanation. And honestly speaking, an off cd silence effect is incredibly strong and allows you to silence a hunter without using garrote, a warrior without applying a dot to him, etc. It's also a way to interrupt someone in a blessing of protection, something that would normally be impossible.

To address the comb, feral rogue isn't terrible. The issue feral rogue has it's that it's a one trick pony, it's all about the burst most of the time. I didn't play it enough to give you a deep explanation, but you can get pretty decent ratings with it, just don't expect a rank 1 comb here. Ret rogue on the other hand still isn't as reliable as priest rogue for example, but it has a higher consistence then feral rogue. I would even say ret rogue requires more skill to play (assuming we talk about a decent lvl not 1500 rolling face), since rets are very easily countered if they run without a healer and require a lot of positional awareness to be played effectively in arena.

To break it down: Play belf, it's simply superior. This by no means implies undead is bad, it's just not as good.

For comb, let your friend play whatever he prefers. Both combs can be played, it boils down to what he enjoys playing so he actually sticks with it and doesn't quit out of boredom 2 weeks down the road.

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Originally Posted by Ricks

Let's start: First of all, to address the racial question. Arcane torrent is superior in any shape or form

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Why would you start with a pretentious and completely wrong statement like that? That seems counterproductive. Arcane Torrent isn't superior "in any shape or form", because there are many "shapes and forms" where WotF is better, like in literally every fight against a priest or a warlock or when you're playing a dispeller. Next time you want to use an idiom you've heard on the internet, stop for a moment and think about whether it's actually applicable to what you're trying to say, else people like me have to waste their time pointing out how stupid what you just said was.

The difference between Arcane Torrent and WotF is the magnitude in which they affect the fights they're relevant in and since as a rogue all of your fights will revolve around control they will usually last more than 45 seconds, giving you a 45 sec cd trinket against certain teams leads to very heavy impact on the game. If you've ever played against a rogue/priest mirror, you'll understand how big of an impact this racial can have. Meanwhile, you can use Arcane Torrent in every game for 10 energy and a silence so short it's considered an interrupt that makes yours and your teammate's silences worse. It's not going to be the difference between sitting in a fear and watching the priest heal but hey, you can use it whenever you want.

I wouldn't even call it a matter of preference as a racial that wins games against certain comps but is useless against others is objectively better than a racial that is mediocre all the time. And let's be honest, Arcane Torrent sometimes ends up being a downright terrible 10 energy on a 2 min cd, which you for some reason think can replace glyph of vigor, that let's you pool 10 extra energy indefinitely because apparently spamming ambush is the only reason that glyph is there in the first place. Learning something new every day.

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Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

Why would you start with a pretentious and completely wrong statement like that? That seems counterproductive. Arcane Torrent isn't superior "in any shape or form", because there are many "shapes and forms" where WotF is better, like in literally every fight against a priest or a warlock or when you're playing a dispeller. Next time you want to use an idiom you've heard on the internet, stop for a moment and think about whether it's actually applicable to what you're trying to say, else people like me have to waste their time pointing out how stupid what you just said was.

The difference between Arcane Torrent and WotF is the magnitude in which they affect the fights they're relevant in and since as a rogue all of your fights will revolve around control they will usually last more than 45 seconds, giving you a 45 sec cd trinket against certain teams leads to very heavy impact on the game. If you've ever played against a rogue/priest mirror, you'll understand how big of an impact this racial can have. Meanwhile, you can use Arcane Torrent in every game for 10 energy and a silence so short it's considered an interrupt that makes yours and your teammate's silences worse. It's not going to be the difference between sitting in a fear and watching the priest heal but hey, you can use it whenever you want.

I wouldn't even call it a matter of preference as a racial that wins games against certain comps but is useless against others is objectively better than a racial that is mediocre all the time. And let's be honest, Arcane Torrent sometimes ends up being a downright terrible 10 energy on a 2 min cd, which you for some reason think can replace glyph of vigor, that let's you pool 10 extra energy indefinitely because apparently spamming ambush is the only reason that glyph is there in the first place. Learning something new every day.

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To make this short, you are wrong in nearly every way. If you want more detail, you are welcome to google up some discussions from 2009 (or was it 2008?) when WotF got nerfed. Large argument about which race is superior on horde side, the conclusion was that belf is the overall better race for a rogue. Which matches my overall experience with the class also, since I actually tried every single race for at least a year. But as I said, do your research, can't really be bothered to talk you through your bias.

Also the vigor comment was referring to some people wanting to maximize their shadowdance damage potential. No one runs vigor those days, go with the time. Prep, sprint, dance, enjoy your non terrible glyphs.

Eitherway, don't really have the time to take care of your vanilla wow pink glasses. Don't push too much bullcrap into the new guys had, he's still learning you know?

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Originally Posted by Ricks

To make this short, you are wrong in nearly every way.

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I'll make it short as well then. No, you. That's about as convincing as you are right now.

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Originally Posted by Ricks

If you want more detail, you are welcome to google up some discussions from 2009 (or was it 2008?) when WotF got nerfed. Large argument about which race is superior on horde side, the conclusion was that belf is the overall better race for a rogue.

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So your opinion is based on a knee-jerk reaction some spoiled undead rogues had to the WotF nerf in some random Google searches from 5 years ago? That's just hilariously unsubstantial and it's only made funnier by the fact that you think there was some world-wide consensus on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Ricks

Also the vigor comment was referring to some people wanting to maximize their shadowdance damage potential. No one runs vigor those days, go with the time. Prep, sprint, dance, enjoy your non terrible glyphs.

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Yes, "go with the time" and Google 5 year old threads. You're practically Ironman at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ricks

Which matches my overall experience with the class also, since I actually tried every single race for at least a year. But as I said, do your research, can't really be bothered to talk you through your bias.

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But wait, we have personal experience as well! You did better on your pretty blood elf princess rogue than on any other race? Well I did better playing my undead rogue than I did my blood elf one. Wow, this must mean undead are better in every situation regardless of comp, gear or any other possible variables. I now see the error in my biased ways, I should've just said WotF is better in every single situation from the start!

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Originally Posted by Ricks

Eitherway, don't really have the time to take care of your vanilla wow pink glasses. Don't push too much bullcrap into the new guys had, he's still learning you know?

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Vanilla wow pink glasses? What am I even reading here? You're just spouting unrelated gibberish at this point.

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Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

WotF is much better than Arcane Torrent for a rogue as it's a class that can't afford to sit in CC and Arcane Torrent shares diminishing returns with garrote.

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Originally Posted by DamnOriginal

a ret paladin is going to compensate for his lack of knowledge.

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bb tich me ur pr0 skeelz

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Originally Posted by Lynea

bb tich me ur pr0 skeelz

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aight but only cuz i have a speshul place in my hert for u

first u gotta find yoself somethin u want to kill like a harmless prist in the wron neighborhood and then u walk up to dat reightous litle poser and show him the true teachings of the lights by pressing one of ur 2 cc abilitis at random now at dis point one of two things will hapen he's ether gonna acept his new faith and go get up to pray for fogrivness at which point u just auto atack him till his green bar hits 0 OR hes gonna feel like his religios freedom is being opressed use his pvp badge and scream really loud wich might scare u real bad cuz u just dont expect ppl to scream like dat for no reason but dont worry bcuz u have ur own pvp badge to make him shut up then u just spread ur wings and fly away no i'm jokin' u dont fly away u just just hit him with ur second CC ability like BAM out of nohwere PLUS ur 3 damage skills in whatever order u feel like i recommen mixing it up a bit from time to time to confuse ur oponents and be unpredictable like say u use big swirly thing at the start but next time u use it at the end but thats a realy advanced stragedy so i wouldnt blame u if u confuse urself and lose track of the 3 important damage buttens u kno ive been there so anyway prist shud be dead now unles hes one of those tryhards dat wait to use their pvp badge in which case i guess ur ****d cuz they just gonna keep screemin and making u scared forever

I stopped reading after you said a ret + rogue aren't a really good combo. Nice joke.

For classes with stuns, I generally always preferred Blood Elves -> Arcane Torrent. And out of what I've played rogue, if used well it becomes quite an ability and even life saver in certain moments. That silence might seem short, but in PvP that one second can mean a lot!

Anyways, as far as feral goes, I think I've seen only good ones on higher rate in combo with Disci priest, but I think it's the only spec I've never tried so I can't say much. My paladin has 2k atm and I'm playing with a bit undergeared Sub rogue (4 furious set, 1 wf) - so that means you can get decent rating with that combo!

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Originally Posted by Evangelion

I stopped reading after you said a ret + rogue aren't a really good combo. Nice joke.

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You can't call it really good when a rogue has access to comps like Shadow/Sub, Disc/mut/sub, FrostM/sub. Those comps are really good. Ret/rogue is average by comparison. No one called it a terrible comp or said you can't get decent rate with it, it's just not anywhere near as good as the optimal rogue setups. In particular Shadow/Sub is just a flat out better version of Ret/Sub.

ye basically pally /rogue kinda better than feral/rogue about racials if we are talking about 2v2 with a healer like a disc i would say go for undead but since you are going with a feral/Ret Pally go for blood elf believe it or not BE is better than undead if we are talking about double dps comps (rogue/x) and in 3s BE > undead anytime that racial can make u be able to global someone .

Reasons why:
when ur going in 2s as rogue sublety and ur running double dps comp what u want is a fast fight with fast waste of trinkets and this happens a lot specially if u go against another dps comp lets say your going against a shadow priest / rogue you would probably think ye im undead no problem go waste that racial on a fear = Ur dead during the 45 secs. we are a glass cannon class in 2s so everything that helps us do more dmg is welcome thats why human rogues are the best race of the 2 factions cuz it really gives us that 2nd trinket that makes us a glass cannon 100% .

Note: fors 2s u will want to run around 900 -1060 resilence as for 3s is a must to run with 1200 + resilence.