Let's talk about city guards.

Hello,

World PvP seems to have suddenly sparked into life once again. Horde raids have been attacking Stormwind and Alliance raids (my own ones included) have been attacking Orgrimmar very frequently. It’s great to see the two factions warring amongst each other. As someone who is arguably in the middle of it all I’ve been having tons of fun, even when wiping.
However, there’s one glaring problem that people don’t seem to talk about much these days, and that’s the issue of city guards.

Before I even talk about what the issue is, let’s define the city guard.

What does the city guard do?

• Keep invaders in combat and/or kill them. In other words they are a barrier of entry for people trying to attack a city.

How many are there?

• A lot.

How much damage do they do?

• Too much.

Wait, wait. Hold on there for a second. You said that they are a barrier of entry for would-be invaders, right?

• The real question you should be asking is “shouldn’t the players be the guards?”
  The fact of the matter is that World PvP is one of the most exciting and interesting aspects of PvP here. It’s different every time and it compensates for the fact that this is not a realm that evolves in terms of content - it has been and will continue to be 3.3.5a Wrath of the Lich King for the foreseeable future.

If you want change, go play Cata or MoP.

• If I told you to ditch your current expansion you would be hesitant.

So… what’s the issue?

• The damage city guards deal have too great of an impact on the outcome of a world PvP fight.
  You don’t have to like me to agree with me and it doesn’t matter what faction you are as this has been an issue for a long time and IT AFFECTS BOTH SIDES. I can’t even count how many fights have been changed by a guard critting someone for over 5k, applying pressure where the opposing faction did not. Shouldn’t it be the job of the server’s players to get rid of the invaders? This IS a PvP server after all.

World PvP is almost alive and a change like this could make the difference needed to bring world PvP back to its former glory.

People attack cities anyway, so why should city guards get nerfed?

• Try to have a fight in Gadgetzan – oh wait, you can’t because a guard will crit you for 12k+. As a matter of fact Tanaris World PvP is still COMPLETELY dead. On top of that, if you’re with a small group and a scout appears you will also get critted very hard – an amount of damage difficult to heal as a small group.

Then why on earth are you going as a small group?

• Not everyone has the capacity, will power or ability to make as well as control and lead a large raid. Most people want to attack a faction’s city to fight the opposing faction, not NPCs.

Mark, you’re an ***** and I hate you. Go kill yourself you f***ing f*****t.

• You should still agree with me even if that’s how you feel.

There are guilds such a VIRTUS, Unit X, P R O T E U S and a lot of individuals WILLING AND ABLE to defend as well as attack cities. Guards provide an unnecessary buff for defenders when instead they should be the ones skilled enough to wipe an attacking raid.
So I’d like to rally everyone up that agrees with this and reply to this forum post stating that you want this change to happen so our voice as a community can be heard.
That is, assuming our efforts do not turn out to be in vain.

Thank you for voicing your opinion and for taking the time to read this.

Many regards,

Markux.
Guild Master of <VIRTUS>.

Just two points:

- no, the defense of the city shouldn't be up to the players by themselves any more than training others' skills or giving out quests. The city isn't just the players, and the city exists even if most of the players are out or asleep. Going by what you want, every single player from the city who wasn't logged in could be spawned as an NPC to help defend the city, making it even more difficult;

- you're wanting to invade a city with a small group... read the underline a few times. It's not an outpost, it's not a backwater village. You're going against the best defense the city can muster to keep their citizens safe. From what I've read, that isn't in fact how retail was, so it's not a matter of "Blizz-like," just a design choice to make city invasions actually be more meaningful than what happens when a small group is bored.

Hey,

on start, I'd like to point, that even tho I am an Unit X member, what I am about to write is MY (only) opinion.

So, getting to the point, I don't see guards to be any problem. Of course, they are mighty, but that's because of low server population compared to retail. Also, donations causes people to be far overgeared, which means, that 10-men raid of well-geared (aka overgeared) and skilled pvpers can barely clean out the City. You are going into Orgrimmar/Stormwind for like uhm... 10 vs 40 for example. But 15 out of 40 are 2k gearscore and get 2-shooted, another 10 is AFK, 5 won't flag themselves and those 10 left... Hmm... they might be even similarly geared to your raid, but they aren't organized in the moment of attack. So guards are that strong, to actually make any resistance against aggressors.

So, here comes TL;DR version:
Guards are fine, we've already learnt how to deal with them, so I don't see a point in nerfing them.

Best regards,
Scourgedaddy
Member of <Unit X>

Hello, i am Atroll. Hunter and almost officer of Unit X. Let's put an end to our hate and agree about that. The guards are OVERPOWERED. They must be nerfed. As markux said, you can't even start a fight in booty bay or gadgeztan. Officers/scouts in main cities, can kill a player with 2 shots ( not kidding ). Like come on!
Once and for all, thanks markux for that post.

Agreed. With guards nerfed players would have to pay better attention to their cities. So nerfing guards wouldn't be such a terrible idea.

~Zhuldan

Well its true, guards are owerpowered and nobody really is fighting in gadzetan or in booty bay because of it, so, it think at last there guards could be not so strong. About Horde or Alliance cities well ok, there can be 75lvl guards owerpowered but maybe at last not officers, because officers really can kill a lot of ppl.

Well, maybe nerfing Gadgetzan/Booty Bay guards might not be that bad idea, since those are (unlike what Obnoxious said bout main cities) secondary cities, but I'd not touch guards of main cities. Maybe I would nerf those "officers" just a little bit, cause they actually are able to 1 or 2-shot clothers, so that is indeed a little bit overpowered. But yet, guards should be able to compete with players. It's a City Guard. A well-trained unit, whose duty is to protect city. It's not some random opposite fraction NPC quest giver, who needs players' help in killing evil boars who are trampling his fields of corn... This is A CITY GUARD. If you want them so weak, why should they even exist at all? Without them (or with them weak), Orgrimmar and Stormwind's Auctioneers and Bankers will be propably dead like 18 hours/day.

Scourgedaddy,
<Unit X>

If this thread turns into a "this guild this, your guild that, here's proof" or any similar drama it will be finished.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Just two points:

- no, the defense of the city shouldn't be up to the players by themselves any more than training others' skills or giving out quests. The city isn't just the players, and the city exists even if most of the players are out or asleep. Going by what you want, every single player from the city who wasn't logged in could be spawned as an NPC to help defend the city, making it even more difficult;

- you're wanting to invade a city with a small group... read the underline a few times. It's not an outpost, it's not a backwater village. You're going against the best defense the city can muster to keep their citizens safe. From what I've read, that isn't in fact how retail was, so it's not a matter of "Blizz-like," just a design choice to make city invasions actually be more meaningful than what happens when a small group is bored.

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Your first point is a matter of opinion, as is mine regarding whether or not defending the city is up to the players.

About your second point, my example could also be applied to a big raid. POOF, a scout pops up and one shots a healer out of nowhere. You can't really plan for something so random.

WORLD PVP. It's PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER. A city raid (at least how I view it) is World PvP, not World PvP + PvE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

If this thread turns into a "this guild this, your guild that, here's proof" or any similar drama it will be finished.

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I understand and while I have replied back to the first "attack" I will not debate which one is better beyond that. I would like this post to be able the issue I have brought up.

- No, my first point is putting your personal opinion into actual perspective beyond "I don't like how it is." World PvP is player vs. player vs. whatever is in the world nearby. If you wan strict player vs. player, go to a Battleground. It's called "world" because you do it in the open, in the middle of whatever is there, be it player or NPC;

- I don't see any problem with that. Go with more than one healer, learn to deal with a healer going down? What difference would it make how you lose the healer if the group doesn't has competence to work around that issue? Mass PvP is random - unless you are overwhelmingly more powerful and can breeze through it, and the issue seems mostly to be people can't do that.

I agree with Mark.
City guards were never meant to be this strong. They can still do damage, but the amount that they are putting out right now is not how it is supposed to be. The scout isn't there to kill people he is there to get a sneaky rogue out of stealth. That is something the rogue can avoid. but a raid of 10+ people will take op more space and will not be able to avoid a scout hitting them for 8-10K.

Best regards
Roffy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

- I don't see any problem with that. Go with more than one healer, learn to deal with a healer going down? What difference would it make how you lose the healer if the group doesn't has competence to work around that issue? Mass PvP is random - unless you are overwhelmingly more powerful and can breeze through it, and the issue seems mostly to be people can't do that.

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Welp, that's kind of my "attack", but said even less politely. So I'm just gonna repeat myself. There is nothing with guards, with what a well-organized group can't deal with.

However,
"Officers" are indeed a little bit too strong. They can even 1-shoot a healer, which shouldn't happen. I would consider a little nerf on them, since they are far too "random". He can spawn on you and just crush you in a blink of an eye. In that case, there is no tactic at all, just RNG. I would make him strong, but on the other hand, not strong enough to actually 1-shot people. We should have enough time to react and save our healer for example. I mean, okay. Let him 3-shot people, but not 1-shot. It's like, healer gets aggro on Officer, he gets a hit, he says he's got officer on himself, and we react. Like, you know... You need to react in a flash to save your healer instead of you lose a healer everytime an officer accidentaly spawns near him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

- No, my first point is putting your personal opinion into actual perspective beyond "I don't like how it is." World PvP is player vs. player vs. whatever is in the world nearby. If you wan strict player vs. player, go to a Battleground. It's called "world" because you do it in the open, in the middle of whatever is there, be it player or NPC;

- I don't see any problem with that. Go with more than one healer, learn to deal with a healer going down? What difference would it make how you lose the healer if the group doesn't has competence to work around that issue? Mass PvP is random - unless you are overwhelmingly more powerful and can breeze through it, and the issue seems mostly to be people can't do that.

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That is still YOUR personal opinion about how effective city guards should be. You put my view into YOUR perspective. It's different.

Furthermore World PvP is still PvP - Player Versus Player. It's PvP in the world. There is no implication that it should be versus whatever is around there but there is also nothing to say that is shouldn't be. People interpret it differently.

We are capable of dealing with a healer being down. I talked about there being a big raid. You'd have to be crazy to go with just one healer in a big raid. Heck, even one healer with a small raid is daft. That was not what I meant with that sentence, but okay. Let's just leave it at that.

Furthermore my opinion has always been to make it more PvP centric. About player versus player. One faction fighting against the other and removing the other stuff that gets in the way, but I see that my opinion isn't shared so it's obvious that I wasted my time writing about something Warmane views as a non-issue.

Another thing about the "op" guards is the fact that they cannot be slowed nor rended, meaning that killing a city guard as an arms warrior barely is possible when you get crit on and are unable to get the "Taste for Blood" proc. just wondering if that is meant to be or a bug of some sort.

I agree with mark too.

The amount of damage that guards do at this point is redonkulous. Suddenly having 4 guards on you out of the blue is hard to survive.

Also world pvp is World Player Versus Player. Yes, npc's can appear and attack, but they shouldn't do equal damage to another player.

Regards.