Current tuning.

After reading the "whine" thread about how overtuned Naxxramas is I just did a summary from our pov (BIZZNO) about the current tuning. I do really understand that many pugs run into walls here, I would guess that most of them run naxx 10 and expect it to be at least a little lighter in the tuning than naxx 25. The problem is that boss HP + white swing damage tuning GREATLY favours a larger raid setup, purely because the damage on tanks really wont scale linear with the increased number of healers you can bring into a 25-man encounter. I tried to make a list with our progression through both 10 and 25-man with a short summary to what was easy and what was hard for us.

I really hope you keep making content harder than retail was, but on the other hand I hope you can find a way to make 10 and 25 man scale more evenly.

Anub'Rekhan:
10-man: 5 pulls
25-man: 2 pulls
Summary: Boss hits for about the same dmg in both versions (around 20k), pretty decent tuning even though the healing requirement is A LOT higher at 10.

Grand Widow:
10-man: 6 pulls
25-man: 2 pulls
Summary: Same problem here, the boss hits for about the same ammount of dmg in 10-man as in 25-man, making 10man alot harder on the healers and you really have to have a much more optimized group to kill her. The dps requirement is also higher in 10-man.

Maexxna:
10-man: 25 ish pulls
25-man: 3 pulls
This is pobably the hardest boss in the game at the moment (tied with sapphiron 25 because of the insane healing requirement there).
I think we still are the only ones killing this on 10 man and my guess Is that we will be one of very few being able to before nerf. It is just 100% overtuned in 10 man, guilds actually called it unkillable before we managed to kill it. In 25-man it's just a joke, I heard of guilds having problem with her here aswell, but tbh I can't really see whats hard, you have SOOO much more utility in a 25-man raid and the adds are a COMPLETE joke there.

Patchwerk:
10-man: 3 pulls
25-man 3 pulls
Summary: Not much to say here, same tuning, we expected alot more after all the fuzz (even though it was nerfed from ptr from what I understand).

Grobb:
10-man 2 pulls
25-man 1 pull
Summary: easiest boss in the instance, period.

Gluth:
10-man 2 pulls
25-man 2 pulls
Summary: second easiest.

Thaddius:
10-man 15 pulls
25-man 2 pulls
Summary: Again, 10 man is insanely hard tuned, the ammount of healing you need just to pass first phase is insane, stalag hits like a mother****ing truck and you are still on a decently hard enragetimer with 3 healers for "thaddius phase". Fun fact, in 10-man you have 5 dps here and the adds have 2.1 mill each, in 25 man you have 16 or 17 dps and the adds have 4 mil hp, nice math right there, they hit for the same ammount in 10 and 25 aswell so the healing is just a joke.

Noth:
10-man 6 pulls
25-man 2 pulls
Harder on healers in 10-man, thats all I guess.

Hiegan:
10-man 2 pulls (after understanding that we can't use same pattern as live)
25-man 2 pulls
Summary: same boss basically, alot higher risk of tank dying in 10-man after getting disease because of global cd problem with only 3 healers having to spam the dispel aswell.

Loatheb:
10-man 5 pulls
25-man 2 pulls
Less cds in 10 man makes it harder.

Raz:
10-man 1 pull
25-man 1 pull
Summary: Okay, this might be the easiest actually.

Gothik:
10-man 2 pulls
25-man 7 pulls (had a bad night)
Summary: pretty equal, would say 25 is harder though, you need better balance in your group.

4h:
10-man 10ish pulls
25-man 1 pull
Summary: Joke on 25 ( we didn't even have to switch before thane was down), 10 man this is a REAL *****, the healing on the tanks are BEYOND insane untill baron+thane are down.

Sapphiron:
10-man 3 pulls
25-man 7 pulls
Total let down on 10 man, no frost ress needed, 25 man, we just got there when our normal raid time ended yesterday and we just pulled him twice to check it out, there is a lot higher dmg going on here and we are considering using frost ress.
25-man actually sort of required frost ress for us, but that was it, best "tuned" boss for 25-man though.

Kel'Thuzad
10-man 1 pull
25-man 1 pull
Summary: Not much to say, its just easy on 10-man, we'll see about 25, my guess is that it's simple as fhell hough, don't really see why it wouldnt be. Edit: Yep, was simple, 1 try.

TOTAL WIPES:
10-man: 71
25-man: 23

Thank you very much, i'm glad someone from the guilds who are already advanced further into Naxx took their time to somewhat objectively describe the current state of the raid and actually confirm what a lot of us think instead of telling others to suck some d and boosting their ego.

I don't think there is much to add honestly, the current scaling from 10m to 25m is just ridicolous. Yes, it makes a lot of the bosses way harder and we all know that retail naxx in wotlk was a joke. But you know what else it does? A majority of the fights just gets really ****ing boring and grindy. The mechanics from 90% of the bossfights are just very simple and you didn't (understandably) add more complexity to that but just buffing the HP and more importantly their DMG output in such an unreasonable way doesn't make any sense if you compare the 2 versions.

but i was told by random guys that nax is broken as **** and undoable despite them being retail rank 0 gladiator world first kungen
/s
ty for the summary, probably what i was expecting from nax

and then we have those guys in the other topic crying how good and bis geared they are but unable to kill stuff

Can confirm these numbers are quite accurate on the 10 mans. Cleared thaddius, loatheb and maexxna last night and theres some real struggle chaining the cooldowns on Maexxna, but Thaddius is actually quite easy once you get the gist of it. Most of them are quite a bit of trial and error style fights.

ps. I atleast enjoyed the tune of the bosses. Just gotta be patient :^)

This pretty much summarizes my thoughts on 10vs25m tuning.

Did your raid group use 25-man loot on the 10-man clear?

Was your 10-man something like your best 10 players or just 10 people who felt like going out of the 25?

The tuning on 10 looks completely out of whack, assuming you didn't bring a far worse average level of player to your 10-man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mahourai

Did your raid group use 25-man loot on the 10-man clear?

Was your 10-man something like your best 10 players or just 10 people who felt like going out of the 25?

The tuning on 10 looks completely out of whack, assuming you didn't bring a far worse average level of player to your 10-man.

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Nope, we cleared 10-man before 25-man, we used 10 of our best players, I would rate them 9/10 (like world top 10 guild good). Yes, that't the whole point, 10 man is WAY harder at the moment, the only thing that is hard about 25man is to get 25 decently geared players to show up for the raid.

PS. I also updated our number of attempts before kill for sapphiron and kelthuzad 25-man. (spoiler: KT was oneshot).

see you guys say im some huge qq but these guys are retail pros, for ****s sake why gate the community like that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phixlolz

Nope, we cleared 10-man before 25-man, we used 10 of our best players, I would rate them 9/10 (like world top 10 guild good). Yes, that't the whole point, 10 man is WAY harder at the moment, the only thing that is hard about 25man is to get 25 decently geared players to show up for the raid.

PS. I also updated our number of attempts before kill for sapphiron and kelthuzad 25-man. (spoiler: KT was oneshot).

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First of all I laughed that you only rate them 9/10 even though you also say they're world top 10 players. You have tough standards.

Yeah this is a pretty bad state for 10-man, unless they are completely moving away from the Wrath paradigm of 10 being easier than 25 - in which case 25 should be tuned up and 10-man should reward the same loot as 25.

The problem I see right now is that you reach the limit for how hard bosses can hit already in 10-man, I'm seriously decked, like 50% 213 item lvl gear now as a prot paladin and with that gear I can literally take 1 hit from most of the harder hitting bosses in naxx 10, how can you scale this for more healers? So in 10-man 2/3 healers are gonna do the EXACT same healing as 7 healers do in 25-man.

My advice would be to scale down white hit, like alot and scale all the encounter dmg instead. Same goes for boss health buff, it's really not smart to increase the same percentage in both 10-man and 25-man since you will normally do WAY more damage in 25-man because of all the raidbuffs you will have. There is literally not a single boss in 25-man that has a decent dps requirement if your group knows what buttons to press.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phixlolz

The problem I see right now is that you reach the limit for how hard bosses can hit already in 10-man, I'm seriously decked, like 50% 213 item lvl gear now as a prot paladin and with that gear I can literally take 1 hit from most of the harder hitting bosses in naxx 10, how can you scale this for more healers? So in 10-man 2/3 healers are gonna do the EXACT same healing as 7 healers do in 25-man.

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Yeah this is a fundamental problem. with the Wrath healing model, although it normally only crops up later.