<Insert Change Here> was done, so now I'm angry because <Insert Reason Here>

Really? How many topics do we need on things being changed? Do you know how many people were pissed off when Blizz decided to no longer let Tier2 items drop in MC and required players to go to BWL for them? "But they got these better items from easier bosses! I want the same!" Blah blah... the fact of the matter is, the players who have been somewhere longer, whom have put more effort into the game, will always be better geared, have more money, etc... I understand that a private server is supposed to alleviate some of the headaches of retail, or allow you to relive old content... but where do the handouts end?

Exaggeration to follow... Some people want full T10 BiS characters right after dinging 80 from increased XP/gold/rep/skill rates! They had it before, why can't I get the same?! That's not fair! Why do the mods hate us for giving them money?!

Guess what, almost every person I've seen whine or complain about changes to the server in my time here, have been non-paying customers to a free service. You are already getting a FREE server, FREE gear, FREE fun without having to invest anything besides your own time (which you can increase and decrease to your will). Why should you be on the same level as those who put more effort and invest more time into it just because?

A guy who went to college, got a 4yr degree, went for his doctorate and now makes a six-figure salary and can afford a sports car... deserves that car over the guy working McDonalds with no education, no effort put forward, and drives a beat up 92 civic. That sports car is going to be faster, nicer, and all around better car than the civic... so why should the McDonald's worker get the same car? He shouldn't, and never will. Life is unfair and tough, unless you are willing to put time, effort and yourself on the line to make it easier. I have no sympathy for free loaders who want the same **** as everyone else. Can you tell I'm a republican?

Edit - Mods, you can move this if you don't think this belongs here.

Joined July 24, 2016

Of course you have no idea what the hell you are actually talking about. It is very unfortunate that a guy who doesn't know anything about the situation is trying to analyze this in his own closed view points.

When they added 264, 271 ilvl items, these were supposed to be compensations for the complete removal of cosmetic gears, mounts and pets from vote point shop. Warmane said that they felt the need to clear the marketplace. It was also meant to be rewarding for players who have been around for a long time with good attitude and behavior, so they could get a trinket or weapon to start with on their new alts.

Now they have removed all the things we previously had (mounts, pets, and cosmetic gears), they decided without even discussing OR EVEN at least telling us to remove all the 264, 271 items that were supposed to be compensations for the removal of old marketplace. AFTER someone brought it on forum and started blowing up in Icecrown global channel, they decided to respond that "it was unfortunate that we didn't announce, but that's our decision. It was a gift anyway."

I am not even going to talk in-depth about "it's a gift anyway" excuse as I've already talked about it on the other post.

To sum up, there are/were two problems.
1.) Didn't communicate. No alerts, no warnings. - Fixed by giving "72 hours period".

2.) No incentive of using vote point shop anymore for players like me, which are majority. I didn't need any gears from 264,271 iLvl items marketplace anyways. The only incentive WOULD have been if I decided to do so, to get a trinket or weapon for my 8th alt character. Now there is no mount, no pet, no cosmetic gears, and no possible future-gears for my alt characters that aren't even made yet, where is the reason to collect points for?

If they were going to bring back the mount/tabard/pets, I wouldn't say no to this change either.

Upgrade to Hope Tech Enduro wheels on my bike was done, so now I'm angry because I don't have any jam left.

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Originally Posted by Zelda1220

When they added 264, 271 ilvl items, these were supposed to be compensations for the complete removal of cosmetic gears, mounts and pets from vote point shop.

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Can you give me a quote? Because that seems to be the basis of your whole post, and I can't recall anyone saying it was "compensation," be it in posts or internally in the Staff (I'm curious if there is actually anything saying or even hinting at that, really, because I never heard such claim). Especially when we don't have to "compensate" anyone for... "not giving certain stuff out for free anymore"?

Also, what vote points? Where are you voting? We aren't in any rank sites, so if you're voting you're being scammed. And incentive to get free stuff? Are you serious? You expect us to convince you to get free stuff? How about no.

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Originally Posted by Zelda1220

Joined July 24, 2016

Of course you have no idea what the hell you are actually talking about. It is very unfortunate that a guy who doesn't know anything about the situation is trying to analyze this in his own closed view points.

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Actually, I played here before Moltdown just lost everything and account info so I had to start from scratch when I came back.

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Originally Posted by Zelda1220

To sum up, there are/were two problems.
1.) Didn't communicate. No alerts, no warnings. - Fixed by giving "72 hours period".

2.) No incentive of using vote point shop anymore for players like me, which are majority. I didn't need any gears from 264,271 iLvl items marketplace anyways. The only incentive WOULD have been if I decided to do so, to get a trinket or weapon for my 8th alt character. Now there is no mount, no pet, no cosmetic gears, and no possible future-gears for my alt characters that aren't even made yet, where is the reason to collect points for?

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So they originally changed something that gave more than they intended, but didn't want to completely remove something all in one go around. So they did one change, and are now doing more changes. I agree about the communication, but I can't agree with your "No incentive for me anymore" because you were going to reach that point no matter what. Your logic dictates that the VP shop was basically useless to you in it's current state, but then complain that you still need it for other things.

So, as a player who has many high GS characters, you are at a point that the VP shop doesn't add value except for alts. Ok, I get it. Now, imagine if you can, that other players will be at the same point in time with the VP shop not adding value. Which essentially this change does. It just takes that non-value added place on the GS graph, and lowers it. This allows two major things to occur.

1. Gives players a longer "end game" experience that requires them to play the game instead of hanging out and getting free gear.

2. Counter-intuitively to what most people think, actually forces new players to gear up quicker. The time line of gaining points from the website doesn't change, but taking out high value items and only keeping lower ones forces newer players to spend their points on more items instead of just one. So now instead of one, 264 item... they have two 220 items. So overall, their GS just increased by 176 in the same amount of time. Sure, they don't have one high GS item, but their overall score is higher because of it. Now, this feeds back up into my first point because it now forces them to run actual ingame content to get those higher gears, which in turn gives them a better chance of gearing up quicker, rather than waiting 30 days for a single upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Can you give me a quote?

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Of course there is no EXCLUSIVE quote about this because when you guys announced it you guys said you will release the mounts and pets AFTERWARDS. That never came to light without any further updates, so how can there be quote for that? The "basis of my whole post" is what normal rational people (or at least it seems, according to my definition of normal and rational) would make via judgement of their own after there being absolutely no further updates done to the marketplace issue.

Of course, you will end up saying : "That was just your s**t-minded fantasy." but isn't that what rational mind should have been thinking? A "trade-off" for mounts-pets to gears on alt characters? Of course, you will always deny it by saying No, it was a GIFT & FREE STUFF. Gifts and generosity are meant to be given, not taken away after. I made this clear on the previous post by putting an example with Santa Claus, because that's what you guys compared the user-base to;"Children", back in 2015 Christmas.

Santa Claus gives children gifts. After Christmas, he decides to take them away from children and give them piles of garbage. Children are angry. Santa Claus says "Hey, it was free stuff for you anyway. I am taking away what was originally mine. Why are you upset. I don't understand."

Yeah, you guys ain't no Santa Claus. It's business at the end of the day so things can't be given out for free. But what I don't understand is why give it, if you are going to take away later? And of course, as you will say, that this was already addressed by Edifice when he said "This is subject to change".

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Also, what vote points? Where are you voting? We aren't in any rank sites, so if you're voting you're being scammed. And incentive to get free stuff? Are you serious? You expect us to convince you to get free stuff? How about no..

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You are playing with words again. YEAH, POINTS ALRIGHT, NOT VOTE POINTS. And when I said "incentive", I didn't mean "incentive to get free stuff", I meant "incentive to not violate in-game rules so you get that delicious +0.5 free points per day" and "incentives to stay active to collect points". Please don't put words to my mouth that weren't mine.

I don't know how to further quote so, I gotta manually reply.

@Folius

"So they originally changed something that gave more than they intended"

No, that wasn't their intention when they renewed WotLK point shop. The purpose, according to Edifice himself, was to "close the gap between currency value of Coins and Points." It wasn't to "take away" what we had in shops.

Your rest of the arguments are very true, and I do agree on those points that it gives them 2 low-gears instead of one, forcing them to play ICC. I guess I have mixed feelings now.

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Originally Posted by Zelda1220

Of course there is no EXCLUSIVE quote about this because when you guys announced it you guys said you will release the mounts and pets AFTERWARDS. That never came to light without any further updates, so how can there be quote for that? The "basis of my whole post" is what normal rational people (or at least it seems, according to my definition of normal and rational) would make via judgement of their own after there being absolutely no further updates done to the marketplace issue.

Of course, you will end up saying : "That was just your s**t-minded fantasy." but isn't that what rational mind should have been thinking? A "trade-off" for mounts-pets to gears on alt characters? Of course, you will always deny it by saying No, it was a GIFT & FREE STUFF. Gifts and generosity are meant to be given, not taken away after. I made this clear on the previous post by putting an example with Santa Claus, because that's what you guys compared the user-base to;"Children", back in 2015 Christmas.

Santa Claus gives children gifts. After Christmas, he decides to take them away from children and give them piles of garbage. Children are angry. Santa Claus says "Hey, it was free stuff for you anyway. I am taking away what was originally mine. Why are you upset. I don't understand."

Yeah, you guys ain't no Santa Claus. It's business at the end of the day so things can't be given out for free. But what I don't understand is why give it, if you are going to take away later? And of course, as you will say, that this was already addressed by Edifice when he said "This is subject to change".

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Good that you got at least one thing right: assuming that including items to the point shop as "compensation" was made up in your head. But be glad I don't have the power to do what you're accusing us of doing: going through any and all characters you have in any accounts and taking away anything you ever got with points.

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Originally Posted by Zelda1220

You are playing with words again. YEAH, POINTS ALRIGHT, NOT VOTE POINTS. And when I said "incentive", I didn't mean "incentive to get free stuff", I meant "incentive to not violate in-game rules so you get that delicious +0.5 free points per day" and "incentives to stay active to collect points". Please don't put words to my mouth that weren't mine.

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The incentive to not violate in-game rules is you getting banned if you get caught doing it. If you need "incentives" to play the game, i.e. be active, the issue lies elsewhere than with us. "Incentives to collect points" has the same value as "incentives to get free stuff" - we don't care if you get points or not, it's completely neutral to us if you do compulsively or if you never once get a single one.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Good that you got at least one thing right: assuming that including items to the point shop as "compensation" was made up in your head.

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Rofl. I literally said something that was never told that was promised to be told cannot be quoted. Isn't that basically staffs' miscommunication's fault for not saying anything when we were promised to be told? If nothing is said, of course, there are rumors and made-up stories everywhere. It's called lack of clarity.

And yeah, you are valid on the point that you guys are not technically TAKING AWAY everything we have been given. I guess just the "opportunity" has been taken away. And you are getting me totally wrong. I didn't accuse. I just made a simple example to make the situation look more vivid, as the situation at this moment is very muddy with ACTUAL (but not necessarily true.) accusations from other players, like "Warmane is really pay2win now". And wow that's a very BOLD threatening intimidating tone you got there. I am sure that would have been accused as "staff impersonation" if a normal user told that to a staff. I am not here to fight; I am here to discuss the situation. I even agreed with FoliuS' view point. I don't know why you are acting so aggressive whenever I post something.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

If you need "incentives" to play the game, i.e. be active, the issue lies elsewhere than with us.

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As I've said. That's not my word. Those were Edifice & Mercy.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

we don't care if you get points or not.

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Thank you. That was much more clear than what Proteran has been saying. He kept on saying that "it was a swift decision", but never really clarified if that decision really cared for the point systems as Edifice did before. Apparently, you guys don't wish to do that anymore.

There is no more need to reply. My doubt has been resolved and +1 for FoliuS point of view. It is very valid, although players like me would be probably tossing characters from Horde to Alliance or viceversa in monthly basis because there is nothing else to do with the points. I guess Night Elf hunter would be fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

we don't care if you get points or not.

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so with that clearly stated, whats next in line to be axed?

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Originally Posted by Ghinbedi

so with that clearly stated, whats next in line to be axed?

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Your ability to take things out of context would be a great option.
Now if you only could axe Zelda's along, that would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Your ability to take things out of context would be a great option.
Now if you only could axe Zelda's along, that would be awesome.

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it's not out of context when you get rates nerf, upcoming gold nuke and now the new VP changes in a row. weariness does not come from the blue

Just going to ask a question, don't bite my head off (including you Obnoxious :P)

So if the staff doesn't care about the "points" (or obtaining points) or the "point shop" (by buying (if you can call it buying) free stuff). Then why exactly is the system still in place exactly? I mean if the staff doesn't care then why make the changes? I'm sorry I find the whole "not caring" argument counter productive.

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Originally Posted by Ghinbedi

it's not out of context when you get rates nerf, upcoming gold nuke and now the new VP changes in a row. weariness does not come from the blue

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It is out of context with what you tried to imply in your selective quoting and post. Try reading past the comma that would come where you cut the quote short: we are neutral on if people collect points or not. We offer players something, on our terms. We don't get more or less players based on how many points are collected. Our server bills don't get discounts based on how many points are collected. Points collected also don't make our host more reliable or serve to make Developers' work easier. Much like Character Trading that created so much complaining about "too high prices," we simply offer the point system to the players, whether it will be used by all or few. There's no reason for us to give "incentives" for points to be used beyond them existing.

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Originally Posted by romz

Just going to ask a question, don't bite my head off (including you Obnoxious :P)

So if the staff doesn't care about the "points" (or obtaining points) or the "point shop" (by buying (if you can call it buying) free stuff). Then why exactly is the system still in place exactly? I mean if the staff doesn't care then why make the changes? I'm sorry I find the whole "not caring" argument counter productive.

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I addressed most of your questions above. Regarding why make the changes? Because we care about how it can be used, when it's used.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

I addressed most of your questions above. Regarding why make the changes? Because we care about how it can be used, when it's used.

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That moment I was going to list what you posted above by "answering" my question....until I saw you meant the paragraph above that.....RIP

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

It is out of context with what you tried to imply in your selective quoting and post. Try reading past the comma that would come where you cut the quote short: we are neutral on if people collect points or not. We offer players something, on our terms. We don't get more or less players based on how many points are collected. Our server bills don't get discounts based on how many points are collected. Points collected also don't make our host more reliable or serve to make Developers' work easier. Much like Character Trading that created so much complains about "too high prices," we simply offer the point system to the players, whether it will be used by all or few. There's no reason for us to give "incentives" for points to be used beyond them existing.



I addressed most of your questions above. Regarding why make the changes? Because we care about how it can be used, when it's used.

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then allow me to repeat what i've said in a closed thread. the VP system gives a degree of convenience and comfort to players especially the older ones. these little bits of kindness was one of the main driving force of my guild's endless stream of recruits. we as a whole not only endured but thrived despite molt-down, sitting constantly at 900+ toons and many of us donated generously to the server without hesitation

when the RP gear/mounts/pets/recipes were removed, 264 and 271 items were the bargain in exchange. but now those are gone too, and apparently now we're told that these incentive doesn't matter because it does not help to pay the bills.

maybe this lack of care, which contrasts sharply to the attitude shown when community was "needed" to retain and rebuild everything from scratch, is a sign that you perhaps have reached an monopoly. if so, congradulations