Frost vs Unholy in 2v2

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November 11, 2016
bagelwOw

Frost vs Unholy in 2v2

Really just curious on your thoughts, I've been using unholy myself and intend to stick with it.

Pros for unholy:

* Good self sustain from Death Pact, Ebon Plague gives 5% extra heal, and if you pick Lichborne that's even more heal.
* Extra dps from pet as well as a stun from their pet.
* Gargoyle can do some good damage occasionally.
* Corpse Explosion for decent AoE especially when it crits.
* Bone Shield to keep you up just a little longer, as well as some extra damage.
* Gets kited less easily.
* Can slow the enemy down better.
* Anti-Magic Zone.

Cons for unholy:

* Slightly less burst potential.
* Less crits.
* Much less overall dps as frost crits so much more often and can have both weapons deal damage at the same time (including crits).
* Less runic power generation, though this doesn't matter as much and isn't as noticeable.

Pros for frost:

* Huge damage potential.
* Good burst.
* Huge and frequent crits as well as a guaranteed (frost damage) crit every 2 minutes.
* Obliterate is actually useful (and if you get Glyph of Obliterate it becomes almost OP).
* Better for single target damage overall.
* Weapons are speedy af.
* More range on (frost) CC.
* Generates a lot of runic power easily.
* Unbreakable Armor with a 1 minute cd is crazy.
* Decent CC in Hungering Cold.

Cons for frost:

* Much worse self sustain (I'm unsure if a good healer counteracts this, I would need to test it).
* Kited = R.I.P. Almost no damage for x seconds.
* Have to pay for Corpse Dust if you want to use Death Pact (which is a necessity, though this isn't that huge of a deal).

Thoughts?
November 12, 2016
Handepsilon

Quote:

Originally Posted by bagelwOw

* Huge and frequent crits as well as a guaranteed (frost damage) crit every 2 minutes.

Not sure if I'm wrong, but I seem to proc Killing machine every 5 seconds. That basically just gives Resillience crit chance reduction the middle finger

Of course, you need to hit first before even thinking to proc the KM
November 12, 2016
Justmarried

Well, I prefer UH. It does have burst damage tho, put D&D, full coil derp and CE. But I guess that is simply what I prefer.
November 12, 2016
Beanlord

Frost really is much squishier both in bgs and arena, part of it is due to the lack of BS which reduces a lot of incoming damage for a while. The other two great things unholy has is a passive magic reduction + stronger AMS + AMZ. To be honest, the one thing frost really lacks is good magic damage reduction. If allowed casters will **** on you hard. Outside of that it's very fun as well as rewarding. You could easily land kills if you chain your procs + ua with a silace and/or stun. Usually you'll see fdks do 2v2 with an hpal as he really compliments the spec. Covers your lack of stun + sacred cleansing greatly increases your survivabilty versus casters.

My thoughts are that you should play whichever you want really. You'll likely have an easier time with Unholy but the spec tends to be rather boring imo.
November 12, 2016
dike

Quote:

Originally Posted by bagelwOw

Pros for unholy:

* Extra dps from pet

this doenst work lul
November 12, 2016
bagelwOw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handepsilon

Not sure if I'm wrong, but I seem to proc Killing machine every 5 seconds. That basically just gives Resillience crit chance reduction the middle finger

Of course, you need to hit first before even thinking to proc the KM

Yes, Killing Machine does proc very frequently. I was referring to Death Chill, which also includes a guaranteed Obliterate (or something else but what's the point?) crit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rifokelt

My thoughts are that you should play whichever you want really. You'll likely have an easier time with Unholy but the spec tends to be rather boring imo.

Yeah, I was intending to stick with unholy either way as I originally stated. And, yes, unholy is incredibly boring imo. I love the big numbers constantly on my screen and how fast I melt others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dike

this doenst work lul

Any insight as to why not?
November 14, 2016
dike

Quote:

Originally Posted by bagelwOw

Any insight as to why not?

pet scaling is broken af. they do almost zero dps. pet resilence is not working. in 90% of encounters if warr bladestorms on top of ur gargoyle and ghoul they will die in 3 seconds. seems like that pets dont recieve any damage reduction from their master's resilence
November 14, 2016
bagelwOw

Quote:

Originally Posted by dike

pet scaling is broken af. they do almost zero dps. pet resilence is not working. in 90% of encounters if warr bladestorms on top of ur gargoyle and ghoul they will die in 3 seconds. seems like that pets dont recieve any damage reduction from their master's resilence

Are you 100% certain? I've had plenty of experiences where it took a good ~8 seconds to kill a ghoul without a healer on it. Is that too short? I mean, it might be because my weapon is ilvl 219. In fact, I've been told that pet scaling was fixed sometime recently. On top of that, my pet does 700 damage per hit at the minimum on my target which, frankly, isn't bad damage at all.
November 14, 2016
Handepsilon

Quote:

Originally Posted by bagelwOw

Yes, Killing Machine does proc very frequently. I was referring to Death Chill, which also includes a guaranteed Obliterate (or something else but what's the point?) crit.

Ah, you said Frost Damage, I thought it meant only Frost Damage (since Obliterate is physical iirc.) my bad
November 14, 2016
dike

Quote:

Originally Posted by bagelwOw

Are you 100% certain? I've had plenty of experiences where it took a good ~8 seconds to kill a ghoul without a healer on it. Is that too short? I mean, it might be because my weapon is ilvl 219. In fact, I've been told that pet scaling was fixed sometime recently. On top of that, my pet does 700 damage per hit at the minimum on my target which, frankly, isn't bad damage at all.

dude ur pet wont do anymore dmg even when u become bis geared, and ye ur not doing enough dmg cuz ur gear isnt that good. my bis warr just wreks any pet in a moment

here is a link https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/report/13356
November 15, 2016
Zedarus

Your list got few things right but mostly focus is on wrong things.

Unholy

- Long cooldown on gargoyle is rip. Majority of DKs struggle to stay alive for their next gargoyle cd.
- CE is strong but almost hilariously difficult to land (when you compare it to any other dps ability ingame)
- Some teams require you to micromanage your targets, and abilities at the same time (eg Warlock / healer, you have to stop healing, health funnel, and kill the pet, usually solo). This becomes very easy with experience, but new DKs struggle with it. Compare to warrior, you can just target pet and it melts hue.
- Hpal teams can take a while to kill
+ Strong survivablity, vs casters. I prefer this spec in general especially vs warlocks in arena.
+ Easy to kill all non-hpal healers while retaining high survivablity.

Frost

+ High, frequent burst via Frost Strike (almost constant due how fast you can regenerate runic power most of time).
+ Hungering Cold, 10 sec aoe CC on 1 minute cooldown (very short considering how strong it is).
+ Simple gameplay mechanics (Frost Strike, Chains of Ice, Plague Strike, Death Grip, Hungering Cold ... enough to rip most of teams apart). A lot of DKs would do a lot better as Frost in arena than they do as Unholy right now.

- Squishy vs casters (ele lock, mage lock type of teams can be nightmare if you don't kill something in AMS).
- Spam dispel on Frost Fever can negate your damage outside HC / stuns.
- Dispellable snare
November 16, 2016
Turbolqk

Dont forget the weaker death strike on frosts part. U also have weaker mobility and magic defense, so if i go 2s with frost, it would be disc or hpal.
November 16, 2016
bagelwOw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedarus

Your list got few things right but mostly focus is on wrong things.

Unholy

- Long cooldown on gargoyle is rip. Majority of DKs struggle to stay alive for their next gargoyle cd.
- CE is strong but almost hilariously difficult to land (when you compare it to any other dps ability ingame)
- Some teams require you to micromanage your targets, and abilities at the same time (eg Warlock / healer, you have to stop healing, health funnel, and kill the pet, usually solo). This becomes very easy with experience, but new DKs struggle with it. Compare to warrior, you can just target pet and it melts hue.
- Hpal teams can take a while to kill
+ Strong survivablity, vs casters. I prefer this spec in general especially vs warlocks in arena.
+ Easy to kill all non-hpal healers while retaining high survivablity.

Frost

+ High, frequent burst via Frost Strike (almost constant due how fast you can regenerate runic power most of time).
+ Hungering Cold, 10 sec aoe CC on 1 minute cooldown (very short considering how strong it is).
+ Simple gameplay mechanics (Frost Strike, Chains of Ice, Plague Strike, Death Grip, Hungering Cold ... enough to rip most of teams apart). A lot of DKs would do a lot better as Frost in arena than they do as Unholy right now.

- Squishy vs casters (ele lock, mage lock type of teams can be nightmare if you don't kill something in AMS).
- Spam dispel on Frost Fever can negate your damage outside HC / stuns.
- Dispellable snare

Yes, I was hoping to be more general as I don't have much experience in arena with Frost at all. On the topic of CE and Garg, I've had plenty of times where I've popped multiple Gargs. CE is one of those odd moves that I try to stay away from unless I get the opportunity, but when that opportunity arises it can be good damage.

If we were to get more in depth with what counters what, I wouldn't have really been able to do the same with Frost. Good input though, thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbolqk

Dont forget the weaker death strike on frosts part. U also have weaker mobility and magic defense, so if i go 2s with frost, it would be disc or hpal.

All of these things I referred to, maybe it wasn't clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handepsilon

Ah, you said Frost Damage, I thought it meant only Frost Damage (since Obliterate is physical iirc.) my bad

I meant in the Frost category, sorry. That wasn't entirely clear.
November 16, 2016
WolfCD

Isnt frost just a worse warrior in 2s?