It seems that people are underestimating the power that Discipline priest are bringing in raids. Some raid leaders rather stack Rdudu, RSham or Hpal.
Why is that? Is this some kind of racism i smell?!
It seems that people are underestimating the power that Discipline priest are bringing in raids. Some raid leaders rather stack Rdudu, RSham or Hpal.
Why is that? Is this some kind of racism i smell?!
I think you mean classismQuote:
Originally Posted by ToasterLoveBuns
We must find and figure out why Classism exist?! Was it Slavery?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixtyninee
Because, unless you're doing Lich King, all other healer specs bring more to the table than they do. There isn't anything they do that is unique which is impactful enough to matter to the point where it's worth using one instead of any of the other healer specs.
Discipline only brings 3 things that Holy does not;
- Power Infusion - Often used in this community for a dps boost, which isn't necessary for boss kills really. Normally otherwise it would best be used on a healer, but nobody does that around here.
- Pain Suppression - External damage reduction CD for a tank. Holy Priests have Guardian Spirit, which is often considered a better external tank defensive, because it can be used as a cheat death.
- Stronger shields - Which isn't a big deal on most encounters unless it is Lich King. Discipline is strong on that fight specifically for damage prevention on Infest. Shielding aside, Holy Priests have stronger throughput across the board, both for tank healing and for raid healing. Consider that spamming bubbles isn't healing, it's preventing damage. Once your bubbles break, all you have to compete with a Holy Priest is your Penance.
Sure, you can spam shields and get huge HPS, but unless the only thing you care about is your ego, then HPS is useless. Nobody dying > HPS. HPS shouldn't even be a concern unless you need to check and see if there is a healer problem and causing people to die.
Things that Holy Priests have that Discpline does not;
- Guardian Spirit - External CD for tanks which is a boost to healing on that target, and a cheat death.
- Body and Soul - A movement speed boost that can be applied to anyone you can put a shield on, which directly competes with a Discipline's mechanics, and thus makes them a problem.
- Lightwell - Very strong, but nobody clicks on the damn thing.
- Significantly stronger heals all around via Serendipity, Renew talents, and many talents that increase the healing done by spells.
- Spirit of Redemption - Invaluable on progression fights. Allows the Priest to continue to heal for 15s without mana costs when they die.
Now, how about specific utilitie that other classes bring?
Holydins
- Paladin utility toolkit including especially Hand of Sacrifice and Hand of Protection.
- Raid and group damage reduction CDs via Aura Mastery and Divine Sacrifice.
- Divine Shield can be used to cheese a variety of mechanics.
- Completely self-sufficient; doesn't need external CDs to support their mana and healing capabilities.
- Strongest nuke heals in the game. Must have.
Resto Shaman
- Bloodlust/Heroism - A must-have for any decent raid.
- Mana Tide Totem - Group-wide mana regeneration CD that is simply a must-have.
- Chain Heal.
Resto Druid
- Best raid healer due to the ability to apply HoTs to so many targets at a time. HoTs are also their own little utility as the heal steadily over time, instead of up-front.
- Innervate & Battle Ress ability. Must have.
As you can see, each of them have something that is labeled as "Must have". As in, you must absolutely have that in the group. There isn't any replacing it. Sure, some of those things have a way of them being replaced by something weaker (like a Holydin's nuke heals, can be replaced by a Shaman), but you are hurting the raid if you accept the weaker counter-part.
What does a Discipline Priest have that is classified as "must have"? Strong shields for Infest on Lich King. That's it. That's literally it.
I may have missed some things, but hopefully the point has been made.
There is mechanic on almost every boss where disc has very high value. It is not just LK.
Marrowgar flames, LDW Frostbolt volley practically eliminates chance to die on spirits and such because you simply don't take damage and get super fast mass dispel. Blood nova on DBS, tough any decent raid will be spread. PP green oozes, Rotface slime spray/ mmutated infection, shields are epic for that, BPC shadow prison/that fire cone... etc. Damage prevention > damage healing.
And good disc will never oom, so he can rebuff after battle ress without worry about mana.
Ehm, discs is the "healer" with the biggest % "healing" efficiency in a raid. What I mean is that regardless of what a disc does, his absorbs will always go off resulting in less raid damage taken overall. There's ZERO reason to not take a disc in a raid.
Ppl underestimate disc for a simple reason: Recount and BG statistic show only healing done and not absorb+ healing.
There are many encounters which disco is pretty useful. As Angrylol just pointed out, disc priest can also prevent raid members by bubbling them instead of healing that takes seconds to cast and also it helps other healers to avoid unnecessary wipes/death in the raid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercy
Speaking of PI its pretty useful on situation where you need to Nuke down some nasty adds like Valks in LK encounters which is pretty good when you think about it.
I dont really see the logic when you said a "Must have" in raids. Yes, Rdudus have Bress and Innervate but wait?! Does cat/bear/boomies count as well? Ofcourse you need to have Rdudu in raids but it doesnt mean that Disco are gonna get outperformed by them.
Hpals ofcourse have the best Nuke healing and tank healing in all classes ingame no doubt about that but Disco have Penance as well so they can also be called nuke healing but a cuter version of it (kek)
Rshams Bloodlust/heroism is VERY Useful ofcourse no doubt about that but all Shamans got Bloodlust/heroism on their Spellbook sooooo
Though Disco priest doesnt have much spells to help the whole raid it doesnt mean its gonna get outperformed by other healing spec/Classes in game.
All healing class have their own respective gameplay and utility and if you think other classes outperforms the other, then i dont care.
Yes, Disc priest is life and love.Quote:
Originally Posted by angrylol
Disco healers can literally save anyone's asses just by giving them Bubbles the moment they ****ed up and get them out of the way. Specially when youre pugging some people tend to do ******ed things and blame healers for it.
The mass dispel is lovely af! You can literally removed debuff in seconds and its AOE! What more could you ask for?
Saving a person's *** is a Disco's job thus Preventing incoming damage is pretty much is a MUST!
And oh! What is OOM again?!
(English aint my first language so forgive me and this crappy essay i wrote because i hate myself)
Edit: Rdudus are the best raid healers. Discos are gonna get outperformed at healing sooooo mb
That can be argued. Just because damage is absorbed, doesn't mean the right damage is being absorbed. The right damage being absorbed is important due to how the Weakened Soul effect works. This mechanic isn't an issue when you're playing a BIS character in 30% nerfed content, and you'll find that the bubbles rarely break. However, when entering ICC without said nerf, and your entire group is using ToGC gear for 10m, or perhaps even some ICC10 gear for 25m, you will find that things change. Such as Discipline Priest "healing" having significant downtime due to the inability to re-shield people for extended periods of time after the shields pop, or the "4 healer" comps changing to the usual 5 and 6 healer comps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifokelt
Yes, OOM isn't an issue. Currently. That's because of the gear levels and content the people on this realm are used to. Similar reasoning applies to why the shields are so effective, as I mentioned above in my previous paragraph.Quote:
Originally Posted by angrylol
>Marrowgar flames
Nobody should be getting hit by them in the first place.
>LDW Frostbolt Volley
I suppose nobody would know that interrupts on that particular fight was a very important part of the strategy while the content was new and guilds were doing progression.
>Blood Nova, PP Oozes, Slime Spray
Chain Heal, Circle of Healing, etc. are very effective spells at covering these mechanics just as well.
>Slime Spray
Just like Marrowgar flames, nobody should be getting hit by that.
>Shadow Prison
So basically you don't want other heals to have anything to do except heal the tanks? Oh right, people on here still get hit by vortexes and build ridiculous stacks of the Shadow Prison without using any defensives.
Yes, damage prevention > healing. You know what's more effective than Discipline Priests at this? Players who are competent enough to not get hit by basic mechanics.
TLDR; Your Discipline Priests are a crutch for bad players. Which is amusing, considering the thread is made by a guy who is complaining about pubbies who don't want to invite Discipline Priests.
Yes, they are useful. I'm not saying they aren't. You're taking what I said just like most people do when someone says "A Warrior tank is the worst tank". Being the worst choice doesn't mean that they are bad and shouldn't be taken at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToasterLoveBuns
>disc priest can also prevent raid members by bubbling them instead of healing that takes seconds to cast and also it helps other healers to avoid unnecessary wipes/death in the raid.
So what happens when the person needs a heal, your shield has popped already, and they have the Weakened Soul debuff on them for another 10s? Penance? What about the next dude, who is standing right next to that guy, and is in the same situation? Do you rely on the other healer(s) to handle it? What if they don't? What if they can't?
This is an inherent problem with the spec that no other healer faces. Which is exactly why Blizzard reduced both the duration of the shield and of weakened soul in later expansions.
PI is nice, but there are other things that are great that other healers can provide too. Especially in the Valk situation where a Holydin can provide stuns, a Shaman can provide perma-slows, and a Druid can innervate OOM casters (arcane mages come to mind) which can be worth just as much, if not more, burst damage than a PI.
>I dont really see the logic when you said a "Must have" in raids. Yes, Rdudus have Bress and Innervate but wait?! Does cat/bear/boomies count as well?
So you're saying you would pass up having another battle ress and an innervate in your raid just because you would "rather have" a Discipline Priest?
>Ofcourse you need to have Rdudu in raids but it doesnt mean that Disco are gonna get outperformed by them.
Again, it's not an argument of HPS. Saying HPS is the only thing that matters is just like telling me that gearscore is the best guide you can use to gear your character.
>Hpals ofcourse have the best Nuke healing and tank healing in all classes ingame no doubt about that but Disco have Penance as well so they can also be called nuke healing but a cuter version of it (kek)
Penance has a CD and is very easily out-performed by a Holydin.
>Rshams Bloodlust/heroism is VERY Useful ofcourse no doubt about that but all Shamans got Bloodlust/heroism on their Spellbook sooooo
So you'd rather take a Discipline Priest than a Resto Sham because the Priest is "better", and in order to get the Bloodlust, you would get an Ele or Enhancement Shaman instead? I'm going to assume you're unaware of how the community views the Shaman DPS specs, yes?
>Though Disco priest doesnt have much spells to help the whole raid it doesnt mean its gonna get outperformed by other healing spec/Classes in game. All healing class have their own respective gameplay and utility and if you think other classes outperforms the other, then i dont care.
You have the term "utility" in your thread's title. My argument has very little to do with HPS. Yet that seems to be the only rebuttal I can get from people about the spec.
Holy can give shields too. And they can spec for a speed boost to go with it to boot!Quote:
Originally Posted by ToasterLoveBuns
A Holy Priest can do the same thing. So can a Shadow Priest.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToasterLoveBuns
Holy Priests are actually superior at putting a barrier between a person and death. Yes, absorbs are nice, but not only can a Holy Priest use those shields as well, they also have instant heals - of which, the only thing a Discipline Priest can compete with is Penance, which has a CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToasterLoveBuns
As for the subject of oom, any good-to-decent healer should never be running oom unless the group they are in are taking a lot of damage they shouldn't be taking. Sometimes I wonder if people realize that Blood Queen casts bloodbolts when she's not in air-phase.
Anyway, you're welcome to your preferences and your arguments. But before you go after me, just remember, you asked for the explanation.
The way you put effort on explaining this thread is pretty nice :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercy
I will not argue anymore because i'm pretty sure every class has their own thing and it's just preference in what/which class raid leaders want in their raid composition. Wait a minute?! Am i contradicting myself in my own post? Idk whatever.
As far as this discussion go, i just wanna see how it goes and now it's pretty clear what and which classes do in raids. Thanks!
Being a disco priest is fun and have a very unique play style than other classes in game which i love so much because i like being different that other people (Insert im different than your normal person meme here) Plz dont roast my engrish cuz i know itz bad
ey! Im offended m8Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy
However you argue it, the raid still took less damage overall. Even if a few shields didn't go off for the whole 30 seconds uptime, they were still there in case something happened (this is rare though). In the rare cases it does happen tho, it's of little consequence as discs have mana for days on most fights. But yes otherwise I do agree that on a progression content it would suck compared to all other available healers. We don't play on such a server though, or at least I don't think that Icecrown is one of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercy
Frostbolt volley cannot be interrupted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercy
You could say in the same fashion that playing prot pala is for bad players as it basically offers a second life to compensate for people without awareness. Just because there are encounters where a large amount of damage can be avoided doesn't mean that using a disc priest has no value. For those instance where you do or have a chance of taking some, the absorb blanket comes in handy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercy
You're not saying they're not useful, but you obviously consider the spec highly inferior to every other healer spec in the game without a particularly good reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercy
There's a reason people don't let discs solo heal 25 mans, it's likely the same as to which most other healers don't do it unless a guild is trying to do some speed kill or simple has too few healers. The point isn't whether a disc can do fast and efficient heals. For the most part the disc can't, that's not the purpose of discs in a raid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercy
So could a specless priest, but only discs can do one shield each second. In translation with the buff, this means that a well geared priest will put an absorb blanket on his/her target worth 10k+(if it's a buffed icc) every single second, regardless of whether he's moving or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercy
As a last note, I don't mean to say that holy priests are inferior to discs in any way. In fact I generally like holy priests a lot more than other aoe healers such as rsham/rdruid. Thing is, you seem to really undervalue the usefullness of discs. I don't know why, but they are indeed highly useful. Taking into consideration how much Healing and Absorbs they do per fight, you can easily see all of the raid damage that they have mitigated. Damage that would otherwise would have to be healed by the other healers. And no, I'm not saying that the other healers can't handle it, it's damage over time not burst, however, it significantly steadies incoming bursts of aoe damage which is more than enough to consider taking a disc to a raid.
Only read this far. All I'm seeing is that disc is a band aid for people who can't play. Anyone got the name Gameshark for their priest?Quote:
Originally Posted by angrylol
You have zero idea of what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifokelt
The term progression was also used so if you consider yourself a capable person, check your sources and how the fight is supposed to work. I understand the need of having a Discipline Priest in 99% of the raids that happen in this realm. I mean, with all due things considered, we're able to conclude that 99% of this server is filled with players that don't know how to strife.Quote:
Inflicts 50,700 to 53,300 Frost damage to an enemy and reduces its movement speed by 50% for 4 sec. 2 sec cast. Interruptable but unresistable on heroic difficulty. 58,000 to 61,000 on Heroic.
First off that's frostbolt, unless I'm HUGELY mistaken, which is hardly the case, then you just linked the description of the frostbolt skill of LDW. Frostbolt Volley != Frostbolt. As for the rest of your post, the term progression can be widely used, but I think what Mercy means is progression in the sense of doing ICC with ToGC/ToC gear, not progressing through encounters with full ilvl264+. Of course I could be wrong and if so I'm more than sure that she can speak up for herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavazza
And lastly your point about strafing is?
P.S. I'd suggest you get a better idea of what YOU are talking about.