paladin's judgement of the just talent is the equivalent for warrior tank's thunderclap, as it should slow the enemy's melee attack speed by 20%. however its not showing up on icc bosses. Anyone know if its worth to take the talents?
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paladin's judgement of the just talent is the equivalent for warrior tank's thunderclap, as it should slow the enemy's melee attack speed by 20%. however its not showing up on icc bosses. Anyone know if its worth to take the talents?
It's because this talent does not stack with with alot of other abilities. Like you said, warrior's thunderclap is one of these.
Most frequently though, is DK Icy Touch, which all DK's maintain on boss 24/7 as it's one of the vital Diseases that DK's must keep on bosses otherwise they lose a large amount of DPS.
The other source is also Infected Wounds from feral druids. They do not stack, so most of the time, it will be overriden.
In a well optimised raid (for heroic lich king) it is very much worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nobum
Like he said, it can be quite useful in situations such as tanking shamblings or picking up lich king after a frostmourne before a dk applies diseases (or if he is dead, for redundancy's sake).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifokelt
Additionally, it increases the stun duration of Seal of Justice, a very useful tool for Protection Paladins to stun valkyrs. Since it falls under the category of a Random Stun, it does not share diminishing returns with Controlled Stuns such as HoJ and Holy Wrath.
You can find the list of Diminishing Returns crowd-control categories here:
Lastly, it reduces the cooldown on HoJ, letting Prot Paladins spec only one point into improved HoJ in order to stun on every valkyr wave.Quote:
Shared Diminishing Return Categories:
Controlled Root - Freeze (Water Elemental), Pin (Crab), Frost Nova, Entangling Roots, Earthgrab (Earth's Grasp), Frost Shock (Frozen Power)
Controlled Stun - Bash, Concussion Blow, Deep Freeze, Demon Charge, Gnaw, Holy Wrath, Inferno Effect (Doomguard summon), Hammer of Justice, Intercept (Felguard), Intercept (Warrior), Intimidation, Kidney Shot, Maim, Ravage, Shadowfury, Shockwave, Sonic Blast, War Stomp, Throwdown
Disarm - Chimera Shot - Scorpid, Disarm, Dismantle, Psychic Horror (Disarm effect), Snatch
Disorient - Freezing Arrow, Freezing Trap, Gouge, Hex, Hibernate, Hungering Cold, Polymorph, Repentance, Sap, Shackle, Wyvern Sting
Fear - Blind, Fear (Warlock), Howl of Terror, Intimidating Shout, Psychic Scream, Scare Beast, Seduction (Pet), Turn Evil
Horror - Death Coil, Psychic Horror
Opener Stun - Cheap Shot, Pounce
Random Root - Improved Cone of Cold, Improved Hamstring, Shattered Barrier
Random Stun - Impact, Seal of Justice, Stoneclaw Stun
Silence - Arcane Torrent, Gag Order (Warrior talent), Garrote, Improved Counterspell, Nether Shock, Silencing Shot, Improved Kick, Shield of the Templar, Silence (Priest), Spell Lock, Strangulate
Taunt - Angered Earth, Challenging Howl, Challenging Roar, Challenging Shout, Dark Command, Death Grip, Distracting Shot, Growl (Druid), Hand of Reckoning, Mocking Blow, Righteous Defense, Taunt (Pet),Taunt (Warrior)
Scatter - Scatter Shot, Dragon's Breath
Banish, Charge, Cyclone, Entrapment, and Mind Control are on diminishing returns with themselves.
TL;DR very useful talent, take this as a Protection Paladin.
Keep in mind that the Protections Paladin have access to a very powerful talent tree in general, with many of the Protection and early-Retribution talents being quite useful.
This makes it so that there's many more "optional" talent choices for paladins to invest in, down to your personal taste. If you're doing well on threat, you can consider dropping some of the aggro-talents in favor of more defensive talents - Judgements of Just and Vindication are quite nice.
Most 0/53/18 builds you'll be able to scrounge 2 free points to spend into Judgements of the Just, and still make it to Crusade 3/3 in the Retribution Tree.
(If you go 1/2 Spiritual Attunement and 18 points into Ret for Crusade, you'll naturally come across 2 floater talent points to spend anywhere you wish)
Some Guild's require their Prot Paladins to take take Improved Hammer of Justice, so that they can HoJ stun every Valkyr Wave. In this case you could get away with 2 points in Judgement of the Just for -10, saving yourself this hassle, though even this secnario is pretty niche-case.
You can Judgement Shamblings on LK and things like Living Infernos in RS25hc, which DK's don't always get to chance to Pestilence their diseases over to, but that's about the only time you'd find a big use for this talent.
Of course, going deep ret for 3/3 Crusade isn't necessary either, but I like picking up Vindication and Pursuit of Justice in the Ret tree, so it's just conveniently there for me. But that's just my preferences, and like I said, Prot paladins have alot of room for personal-customization when it comes to talent points.
99% of the time you can just rely on your DK's to apply Icy touch. I'd be more concerned in BADLY organized raids, TBH. Dead DK's, bad healers, lack of support spells from the raid such as Pally Sacrifices and Pain Suppressions and you could really get in trouble if you don't have all the tools to fend for yourself :P
I'd classify it as a nice luxury to have, but not necessarily a core talent.
thank you so much for the info. i've seen your guys names around the forums and i love that you guys been posting some detailed in-depth info not just here, but all over. appreciate the help.
I got one more question, you guys know about the vindication talent ?(paladin's attacks reduces the attack power of target by X amount, @ lvl 80 it reduces about 500 attack power i think). In bugtracker it says the uptime is half what it should be on retail and its not proccing as it should be. Do you guys know if this talent is worth to take?
Nobody directly answered the question if it is bugged though. The vast majority of what is written so far is assuming that it does work. But that doesn't answer the question.
Even with a reduced proc rate - assuming that is still the case at current - it is still worth taking if that debuff type isn't being provided by someone else in the group. Demoralizing Shout, Rets taking the same talent, etc. If someone else is providing it, then it is not worth getting as these debuffs do not stack with each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by nobum
Vindication's position in the Talent Tree is also VERY conveniently placed - It's right next to Conviction, so instead of 2% crit chance, you can simply swap those talents out for Vindication. I find that once my threat generation becomes a non-issue, dropping points from Conviction is one of the first things I do.
I personally only have 1 point in Conviction, so I could go Vindication 2/2 and Pursuit of Justice 2/2. Technically I could even put that one point into Seal of Command, but even that's less useful to me, as I don't ever find myself needing to use it.
Pursuit of Justice does not stack with the movement bonus of tuskarr's vitality, so this let me swap that enchant out for the 22 stamina to boots, for slightly more hp. Pursuit of Justice also proves more runspeed than tuskarr's, so that's some good utility gain too., Of course, some tanks don't use ANY movement speed increase at all, so it's just personal preference.
Vindication on the other hand I find extremely useful. Vindication 2/2 reduces Attack Power by 573. The only other sources of this debuff is Curse of Weakness, from Warlocks(which is almost never used on bosses), and Demoralizing Shout/Roar from Warriors/Bears respectively.
However, Demoralizing Shout and Demoralizing Roar, both only reduce Attack power by 408 unless talented for the Improved version, which then increases this amount by 40%, but takes 2 Talent Points for Warriors, and a whopping 5 Talent Points for Bears.
Unfortunately: Both classes usually do not normally take these talents, at least not losing other very important talents to try to fit them in.
Also, using these shouts costs a global cooldown, losing these classes some uptime to maintain on boss.
On a side note, 408 x 1.4 = 572 for the warrior and bear versions. Vindication 2/2 is 573
Vindication also works every well with fast-swinging weapons such as Mithrios, as faster attacks means more procs.
Ah yes, funny how we've gone this far without answering whether or not Judgements of the Just is bugged or not, as per the original question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercy
I from a quick duel outside orgrimmar, after casting Judgement on my duel target, their attack speed went from 2.90 to 3.48
As this lines up perfectly with 2.9 x 1.2 = 3.48, I can confirm that the Attack Speed portion of this talent does indeed work, at least in a PvP scenario. I see no reason why this would not work on bosses or any PvE target.
I have also tested that with Seal of Justice active, after attacking my duel target for a while, the random stun did indeed last for 3 seconds - So that part of the talent is also working.
Then for good measure, after I saw 2 rapid stuns of Seal of Justice in rapid succession, I cast Hammer of Justice, and can confirm that Hammer of Justice did indeed stun my duel target for 6 Seconds, and had a 50 second Cooldown.
So in summary: Yes, all parts of the talent are working as intended;
Also on a sidenote, I can confirm that Seal of Justice random stuns are on a different DR than Hammer of Justice's controlled stun.
Judgements of the Just works fine in pvp and on mobs.. Only part that is bugged about that talent is: It's not working on boss, boss is "immune" to that 20% less attack speed debuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raenel
Ah I see the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by philips123
https://imgur.com/a/k3bva
It does indeed seem like bosses are immune to the effects of Judgements of the Just.
Edit: I found your bugtracker post and added a comment to it at
https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/r...#comment-65146
i read all the long posts bla bla bla thing. "ONE WORD" it's useless AF. only good in pvp.
1) Don't necro post.Quote:
Originally Posted by madmaxpain
2) "One word", don't spread misinformation. It's better not post at all if you don't know.
Wow this is one old thread. The answer can be found in https://www.warmane.com/bugtracker/r...#comment-65146
TL;DR:
This talent is working as intended. -20% melee speed is quite useful but this does not stack with similar effects such as DK's Icy Touch or Thunderclap, and we're not discussing whether the talent is useful or not, as that's not what this topic is about.