Future of PVE on outlands

Hello warmane staff and the community!

I have some thoughts regarding the future of the PVE-side of outlands. After the BT release and clear alot of guilds have been struggling with having enough players to raid. Many players who had been here since the start cleared BT and then felt done. People started quiting left and right and guilds are disbanding as a result of this. After the long wait for new content and most gear being up on the shop the motivation for some players are low and that means also the pool of players u can recrute from when you are a 9/9 BT guild is kind of small.

We have been clearing SSC and KT since september and trying to go back for the MH attunments now each time we want to recrute new players is just so demotivating for ppl they rather quit.

With the gear being on the store and no new exciting content coming out for until SWP wich is months away i think it's time to put server into the (guess it's 2.3) mode. Specially important is to remove the attunments for t6 content (and possibly lower the level required for heroics to honored but not as important). This would make recruting alot easyer.

I think this would stabalize the situation for most guilds and be a good longterm solution for the serve waiting for SWP to be released. I know ZA comes first but that content isnt bringing any real PVE-challange but is more of a catchup-raid.

These are just my thoughts and i think some ppl can agree this is the case.

Kind regards!
C

Seconded - I am trying to raid 25m, but the only guild that raids my time zone is Hyjal/BT only (there are no SSC/TK raiding guilds at my time zone). So I am left with the only option being to purchase Vial runs (with a very long wait-list) before I can even raid. I suspect there are many players in the same position.

You put Kael, Vashj, and Hyjal gear up on the shop - why not put the vials up as well, at least? Would not only make you some money but reduce the queue of people frustrated by lack of options like myself.

It's too early to remove Kael and Vashj requirements. BT has only been out for a month and a half, and you already want to remove the attunement for it. That's absurd. If your players are quitting because they can't handle going back to kill Kael and Vashj for new players, then you aren't a very strong guild and you should probably disband and let your players fill in the ranks of tighter knit guilds with more loyal players. It sounds harsh but that's the nature of wow guilds. Some die, some merge, and some strive.

There are actually WAY too many t6 guilds on the server. Retail servers didn't have 1/10th this amount of top guilds. Some will have to go one way or another. Maybe this is the real problem. It's not that attuned recruits are too hard to come by, it's that there are too many top guilds recruiting.

In any case, the T5 attumenemts have to go first. The rep grind alone is more annoying for new players who have boosted chars.

Putting the vials on the store right now would kill many T5 guilds. This is a horrible, horrible idea. T5 raiders would either buy the vials and then guild hop to T6 guilds, or entire t5 guilds would force their members to buy vials en masse (as insane as this sounds I think it's actually possible given what I've seen from people who play here). I'm sorry if you can't get into a t5 guild in your timezone but the staff shouldn't be asked to ruin other capable guilds to cater to your unusual situation.

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Originally Posted by spraynard

It's too early to remove Kael and Vashj requirements. BT has only been out for a month and a half, and you already want to remove the attunement for it. That's absurd. If your players are quitting because they can't handle going back to kill Kael and Vashj for new players, then you aren't a very strong guild and you should probably disband and let your players fill in the ranks of tighter knit guilds with more loyal players. It sounds harsh but that's the nature of wow guilds. Some die, some merge, and some strive.

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It's not absurd if it means saving the PvE content. Right now guilds break apart for two main reasons, A) BT is cleared and people feel done and B) New players struggle to get into the scene. If this keeps up Outland's PvE will fade away. The removal of the attunaments will at least solve B and might solve A if this means it gets easier to gear up alts.
After all, removal of attunaments does not mean nerfing raids.

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Originally Posted by spraynard

There are actually WAY too many t6 guilds on the server. Retail servers didn't have 1/10th this amount of top guilds. Some will have to go one way or another. Maybe this is the real problem. It's not that attuned recruits are too hard to come by, it's that there are too many top guilds recruiting.
In any case, the T5 attumenemts have to go first. The rep grind alone is more annoying for new players who have boosted chars.

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You can't exactly compare Outland to retail TBC. Firstly because this server has a much higher player cap and secondly because the content that is being cleared is old and there are so much information/addons on how to do them that the difficulty goes down sharply.

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Originally Posted by spraynard

Putting the vials on the store right now would kill many T5 guilds. This is a horrible, horrible idea. T5 raiders would either buy the vials and then guild hop to T6 guilds, or entire t5 guilds would force their members to buy vials en masse (as insane as this sounds I think it's actually possible given what I've seen from people who play here). I'm sorry if you can't get into a t5 guild in your timezone but the staff shouldn't be asked to ruin other capable guilds to cater to your unusual situation.

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While there can be downsides to adding vials to the store it also opens up for the T5/T6 guilds to get new recruits. Alas it would be much better to just remove ALL attunament requirements all together. This will increase the flow of PvErs entering the PvE scene and will also make alt-gearing more friendly.

I agree on many of the concerns posted so far in this thread. I think lowering heroic dungeon rep requirement to honored and removing kara+t5 attunements will be a good place to start. This should help new players get ready for the raiding scene faster and will allow for t5 guilds to still be a thing.

I dont think it would be wise to remove (or make avaible in shop) BT/MH attunements untill SWP is opened. This would effectively kill all incentitive to raid t4+t5 as you can easily gear up a T6 ready char with BoE's and some shop items. If this happen the server is in danger of turning into a ghost servers with very little activity outside raiding hours (as seen plenty on plenty of other projects already). No reason to speed this up as it will happen eventually anyway.

On a sidenote, a ZA release within long might make some players stick around longer and if nothing else make T6 chars do more than just raid logging for a while :)

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Originally Posted by spraynard

Putting the vials on the store right now would kill many T5 guilds. This is a horrible, horrible idea. T5 raiders would either buy the vials and then guild hop to T6 guilds, or entire t5 guilds would force their members to buy vials en masse (as insane as this sounds I think it's actually possible given what I've seen from people who play here). I'm sorry if you can't get into a t5 guild in your timezone but the staff shouldn't be asked to ruin other capable guilds to cater to your unusual situation.

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I can see your point of view here I suppose. I guess my only hope is that removal of T5 attunes will results in a new guild in my time zone forming that does T5...

I imagine a lot of people just give up and quit on their fifth 'gather up a Magtheridon pug, assign everyone roles to click and interrupt, sit around for an hour while everyone goes AFK sporadically or forgets their job, and then pull and it turns out some people can't click cubes' experience. Soul-crushing I tell you.

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Originally Posted by Ostlimpa

It's not absurd if it means saving the PvE content.

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You are massively overreacting. PvE doesn't need saving right now. There are at least 44 BT guilds in existence. If 90% of these guilds died, this server would still have more T6 guilds than a retail TBC server ever did.

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Originally Posted by Ostlimpa

While there can be downsides to adding vials to the store it also opens up for the T5/T6 guilds to get new recruits.

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No. It opens up recruiting for T6 guilds only. It kills all the T5 guilds because there's no reason to raid Kael and Vashj anymore and members start guild hopping. Four T5 guilds became new T6 guilds last month. Actual T5 guilds aren't having as much trouble getting attuned as you seem to think.

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Originally Posted by Ostlimpa

Alas it would be much better to just remove ALL attunament requirements all together.

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This will probably happen when Sunwell comes out. You just have to wait a few months and stop overreacting to everything. Some guilds will die, as they always have, and it will be for the best in the long run.

If the attunements are removed, the server will turn into nothing but a place to shop for t5 and then run t6. All the other content will die.

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Originally Posted by spraynard

You are massively overreacting. PvE doesn't need saving right now. There are at least 44 BT guilds in existence. If 90% of these guilds died, this server would still have more T6 guilds than a retail TBC server ever did.

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As are you. One can make that argument about everything in here. Why? It depends on how you interprate it.
PvE does indeed not need saving right now, it will need saving in the future and by then a lot of damage has already been done that could have been avoided if action was taken. Outland's numbers are decreasing (partially due to bot-bans ofc) and the reports of the PvE scene getting more dull are rife. Outland is not retail and it will never be that, alas on retail the community was a lot stronger due to several factors, but on Warmane most players are shattered (hence high toxic levels), and so it is pointless to compare it to retail.

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Originally Posted by spraynard

No. It opens up recruiting for T6 guilds only. It kills all the T5 guilds because there's no reason to raid Kael and Vashj anymore and members start guild hopping. Four T5 guilds became new T6 guilds last month. Actual T5 guilds aren't having as much trouble getting attuned as you seem to think.

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There are plenty of reasons to keep raiding SSC and TK even if you remove the vials. Right now it only servers as a major blockade to the flow of players. If you open it up then both T5 and T6 guilds will profit, as will lower guilds trying to catch up.

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Originally Posted by spraynard

This will probably happen when Sunwell comes out. You just have to wait a few months and stop overreacting to everything. Some guilds will die, as they always have, and it will be for the best in the long run.

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Indeed it will and for me it does not matter. I see no reason to jump into the fray until SWP/S4 is released because the gear differences are so incredibly high that it makes all previous efforts done for naught.
Also in the long run you want a steady supply of players being able to join as others quit the PvE scene, and there is no reason to not allow that flow to go through already.

As a newer player I'd love for the heroics to be moved to Honored, that would be super helpful without destroying any high level raiding.

Hopefully attunements will either be added to the shop or removed entirely. The item shop makes it so that players immediately lose all willingness to do old content once the gear is on the shop. No one logs on to do T5, you can't key new players, etc. It's a vicious cycle.

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Originally Posted by lamarkey67

Hopefully attunements will either be added to the shop or removed entirely. The item shop makes it so that players immediately lose all willingness to do old content once the gear is on the shop. No one logs on to do T5, you can't key new players, etc. It's a vicious cycle.

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I don't know if that is 100% true since lots of guilds/pugs still run older content on Icecrown.

I agree, it's time to remove attunements. Even my guild that had cleared BT is struggling recruiting new people, because they're often unattuned and we're not doing t5 anymore. Removing attunements would've been of great help for Outland's raiding scene.

its not anyones problem other than your own if you arent doing t5 content anymore to attune your new guys. warmane wouldnt even be removing the hyjal and bt attunements at this point if they were going to go that route, only the keys to ssc and tk.

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Originally Posted by vincentwolf

I agree, it's time to remove attunements. Even my guild that had cleared BT is struggling recruiting new people, because they're often unattuned and we're not doing t5 anymore. Removing attunements would've been of great help for Outland's raiding scene.

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Guess it's time to do T5 then hu?

Just buy a Vashj, and Kael/Al'ar lockout like everyone else does. Easy. Their loot is still pretty much t6 equivalent anyway.