Black Temple Tuning

While some of the over-tuning in Black Temple is needed due to patch 2.4.3 talents, improved game knowledge, item shop, and time between content releases, some of the tuning is outrageous.

Take Mother Shahraz for example. The fight is basically like playing slots. At any point, your tank could be hit with an 11.5k Saber Lash and 11.5k auto attack within .1 second of each other. Even with every physical mitigation debuff on the boss (Shadow Embrace, improved Demoralizing Shout/Curse of Weakness), and the tank being fully buffed (including ironshield potion + Inspiration/Ancestral Healing), he can still take 100% of his health in less than a millisecond. The tank is forced to wear full avoidance gear if you want to dent Mother.

Illidan is another example of a boss whose auto attacks do entirely too much damage. Illidan's main hand swing on Outland does more than a main hand + off hand swing from retail TBC. This once again forces tanks to wear full avoidance gear, minimizing the threat he can generate.

Enrage timers on certain bosses could be less strict. For example, Teron Gorefiend has ~8.92 million hp, more than twice his retail value of 4.1 million. His enrage timer is 5 minutes, meaning you need around 29,700 raid dps to kill Teron Gorefiend. Brutallus, a Sunwell boss notorious for his tight enrage, in retail required 29,167 raid dps pre-nerf. Post-nerf, it was reduced to 20,420. Teron Gorefiend's enrage timer is even stricter than Brutallus', and deaths are guaranteed on Gorefiend.

As I said earlier, some over-tuning is necessary. I am personally fine with the stricter enrages. But I do know some guilds that struggle with it. The increased boss auto attack damage is making raiding much more frustrating, however. Unavoidable deaths on tanks do not feel good. Having to wear full avoidance gear does not feel good. Tanks can go 20+ seconds without being hit once and then be killed in less than a second. I think boss auto attack damage on some fights should be re-evaluated.

We are playing in a private server and what's the problem with having bosses harder? Do you really want to kill every boss that hits tanks for 100 where you deal 3k dps yourself so you 1 shot everyboss and leave raid in an hour? If that's what you want you can go create your own server where you can literally 1 shot everything solo if thats what turns you on.

Stop with the whining about "make this easiiiierrr plllllssssss" and improve yourself.

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Originally Posted by lamarkey67

As I said earlier, some over-tuning is necessary. I am personally fine with the stricter enrages. But I do know some guilds that struggle with it.

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A "friends" guild? suuure

I tend to agree. Prince in kara, Gruul hit too hard where tanks are getting almost 1 shot. The aboms in mount hyjal and some other trash can also almost 1 shot a tank especially if free action pots are on cooldown.

Najentus, Superemus and Teron Gorefiend could have their enrage timers changed a bit to make it doable without your guild having to farm mount hyjal for a month before having enough gear to kill them.

As a tank who tanks Mother every week, I'm fine with her damage output. Yea, it's a hard fight and I have died randomly. But it was also an absolute joke on retail just like the rest of BT, and I think her current form is intense and fun as hell. I think there are some fights (and mother is one of them) where tank deaths should be possible. The rest of the zone before Mother is pretty boring from a tank perspective. The scenario that you give as an example isn't proper either. It takes a auto, a saber lash, and either a beam OR some fatal attraction ticks to kill a tank. You need those 3 exact things to happen to instant kill your tank. Just an auto and a lash is not enough unless debuffs have fallen off.

I mean just imagine if you got what you wanted and Mother did less damage. She would be a loot pinata every week. On that fight, tank deaths are the only thing capable of wiping a raid. The enrage timer isn't strict, and fatal attraction is not something experienced guilds will ever wipe to.

Gorefiend's enrage timer is easy. I'm in a guild that farmed Hyjal for ~2 weeks before BT came out and I'm pretty sure we killed Gorefiend week 1 without even knowing that the enrage timer was 5 minutes. So it's not because we were overgeared. Anyone should be able to handle him relatively soon after entering T6. I'm very sure it's harder to kill 3/4 kael thas adds before phase 4 than it is to beat the Gorefiend enrage.

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Originally Posted by Waterbois5

I tend to agree. Prince in kara, Gruul hit too hard where tanks are getting almost 1 shot. The aboms in mount hyjal and some other trash can also almost 1 shot a tank especially if free action pots are on cooldown.

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These mobs feel completely fine. I sorta get the OP's point (even if I disagree with the premise) about bosses that are capable of killing a tank with no counter-play. But Gruul, prince and abominations are not even close to being in that category. Aboms don't even hit hard - they just do a stun so you take more damage from other things. Please tell me what Hyjal trash can almost 1 shot a tank. Because unless your tanks have literally 4k health then there isn't a single one that can.

If Gruul is coming close to 1 shotting a tank then the rest of the raid didn't do their job.

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Originally Posted by Waterbois5

Najentus, Superemus and Teron Gorefiend could have their enrage timers changed a bit to make it doable without your guild having to farm mount hyjal for a month before having enough gear to kill them.

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Have you ever heard of a guild wiping to Supremus enrage? You're just randomly asking for nerfs for no reason at this point. I think your guild is really bad if you are wiping to Najentus and Supremus enrage timers.

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Originally Posted by Pumpkinduke

We are playing in a private server and what's the problem with having bosses harder? Do you really want to kill every boss that hits tanks for 100 where you deal 3k dps yourself so you 1 shot everyboss and leave raid in an hour? If that's what you want you can go create your own server where you can literally 1 shot everything solo if thats what turns you on.

Stop with the whining about "make this easiiiierrr plllllssssss" and improve yourself.

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I'm not entirely sure if you're trolling or if you're just illiterate. His main concern is obviously that he wants to have bosses work in a way that they're not dependent on RNG in order to kill a boss (as he's clearly saying about Shahraz). Playing a game where you can just lose due to bad luck and there's nothing to do about it is no fun.

Tuning is fine the way it is now.

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Originally Posted by Pumpkinduke

We are playing in a private server and what's the problem with having bosses harder? Do you really want to kill every boss that hits tanks for 100 where you deal 3k dps yourself so you 1 shot everyboss and leave raid in an hour? If that's what you want you can go create your own server where you can literally 1 shot everything solo if thats what turns you on.

Stop with the whining about "make this easiiiierrr plllllssssss" and improve yourself.


A "friends" guild? suuure

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Don't know why I'm responding since clearly you can't read, but who's whining? I'm still clearing BT every week with relative ease, but wasting a bunch of time and consumes on bosses that 1 shot your tank in .1 second isn't fun for anyone involved.

Please consider looking at some of the tuning on a few bosses. Random one shots on tanks are never fun to deal with. Increasing health/lowering enrage timers and buffing damage is all well and good but don't do it to a point where tanks can still randomly die 100-0 instantly with basically no way to save them.

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Originally Posted by Waterbois5

The aboms in mount hyjal and some other trash can also almost 1 shot a tank especially if free action pots are on cooldown.

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x'D
ofc the aboms can 1 shot a tank if u tank more than 1 more at the time u know why ? Because when a Tank gets stunned or is ''casting'' ( Protpala's ) Holy Wrath u have >>> 0 <<< AVOIDANCE all what matters is ur Health Pool at this point....
Enrage problems on Naj'entus and Supremus ?
Naj'entus only req coordination to top the raid in shortest time and throw the spine..
Supremus ?????? you can only wipe to ppl standing in fire or just not running away...
Teron is tight but super doable even if u haven't farmed hyjal for couple of months

The only thing I would like to see is an extended 30 seconds until enrage on council so we dont have to stack so many physical damage dealers

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Originally Posted by real3445

The only thing I would like to see is an extended 30 seconds until enrage on council so we dont have to stack so many physical damage dealers

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I agree that Council is a little extreme. That might be the only fight that I can agree is over tuned. Not even because it's too hard. But because the tight enrage timer changes how the fight is executed. We have a very unblizzlike version of council atm because it used to be a "survival" fight and it's become a "beat the enrage" fight.

Its more of a if a dps gets combod with the first deadly poison and you dont have brez its a wipe... 30 seconds more would allow for 2 lusts (at pull and at the last 30 seconds) which can make unlucky fights less forgiving. Not saying it's needed.

Black temple without ferrari demons is no fun

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Originally Posted by real3445

The only thing I would like to see is an extended 30 seconds until enrage on council so we dont have to stack so many physical damage dealers

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Council isn't the only fight where class stacking is borderline necessary. The fact that tanks need to wear so much avoidance makes fights with constant threat resets, like Illidan, a pain. A Hunter with garbage gear is going to beat a fully geared fury/arms warrior or even warlock here for this reason. It's just completely unfun.

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Originally Posted by lamarkey67

Council isn't the only fight where class stacking is borderline necessary. The fact that tanks need to wear so much avoidance makes fights with constant threat resets, like Illidan, a pain. A Hunter with garbage gear is going to beat a fully geared fury/arms warrior or even warlock here for this reason. It's just completely unfun.

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I don't see any warriors doing this...

They all still stacking stam in their gem slots, not 10 dodge reds or 10 def yellows (which they would be if pure avoidance was their goal). The most I see tanks doing is switching rings/trinkets/cape and other lesser pieces of gear. Sun eater is less than 1% more avoidance than The Brutalizer or Unbreakable Will. So if threat is a huge issue, they could use a stronger weapon if they wanted to without losing too much, UNLESS.....

Are you confusing avoidance gear with passive uncrushable gear for Illidan's sheer? Are you a tank? Because you don't sound like one.

By the way, stacking avoidance gear and uncrushable gear was absolutely a huge trend on retail during t6. So you're basically complaining about a 100% blizzlike gearing philosophy. You can read all about in this enormous thread https://web.archive.org/web/20080913...warrior_guide/

Complaining about a hunter's ability to drop agro is like a shadow priest complaining that a warlock does more dps or something. The classes are just different, and some have clear advantages.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, as far as I know, there are no other fights where class stacking is necessary. I would be very interested to know what fights we've killed that we needed to stack certain classes for, even though we didn't for any of them, including council.