ninja policy on 5 man dungeons and BoE drops.

I ran an rdf earlier, and the Jet'ze Bell trink dropped, heals trinket is way better, the other people in the group was fine, till the heals complained on why i clicked need on that trink, he stated a rule and talked about ingame ninja policy, that on BoE drops, all must click greed, and not need. I told them it was a BoE and can be sold, healer disagrees and wants to report me as a ninja, and I told them them an example, as of going to ICC with group loot on trash, where BoE's can be needed by everyone, for either an upgrade or selling at AH.

Is it considered a ninja when I hit need on a BoE heals trink? I'm a feral / balance dudu btw. and planning on selling off the trink on AH.

Ty.

Its not really a heal trinket.
It procs on both damaging and supporting spells.

But i say this is ninja.
If everyone rolls greed and you roll need, how can you justify that? You clearly didnt need it. You even admitted your gonna sell it. It was just another unfair **** move of some low-life in dungeon as usual.

Are you also one of those guys rolling need on every single drop they can?

Your ICC example is invalid since people arent random put together by a computer but rather by a raidleader who decides the lootrules. And these people either already have the boe equippen or out-gear them.

If you want to get really pedantic about it, yes, you're supposed to greed items that you're not gonna use and are instead planning on selling, hence you're being greedy.

However, in practice greeding on BoEs requires you to make the leap of faith that all the people in your group adhere to the same code and aren't just a barely sentient bundle of uninformed chromosomes, which is quite often the case in RDF. If you're unfortunate enough to have even a single one of these special individuals in your group, they'll most likely need on BoEs and win them over anyone who decided to greed. At this point your only choices are to either stoop to their level and start needing, hoping that whatever arbitrary definition for ninja looting in dungeons Warmane uses doesn't get you banned or you can instead relinquish your hopes for loot, waste time reporting them and hope that the masochistic individual who has the pleasure of sorting through these petty and insignificant reports shares the same arbitrary definition that you have. Either way, you're not getting any items back and got punished for the stupidity of someone else when you could've easily taken away their ability to screw you over by simply rolling need but no, you can't do that because we have these muddy rules that force you to offer your buttcheeks to strangers and hope that they have the common decency to give you a reach around.

When you have a system that actively screws all the parties involved, it's time to get a new one.

O welp. Luckily they fixed the rdf bug. Now I can freely kick these needer out of the group and let them spend another 30 mins for another group.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jacque

O welp. Luckily they fixed the rdf bug. Now I can freely kick these needer out of the group and let them spend another 30 mins for another group.

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You don't get dungeon deserter if you get kicked out of the group.

Also the ninja problem in RDF is not as big as all of you make it out to be LOL. Firstly, items in there are garbage anyway. Even boes, they cost little to nothing. Hence, nobody gives a **** and everyone is friendly enough to be fair. I don't know where you meet all these "needers" who get nothing out of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lawwl

You don't get dungeon deserter if you get kicked out of the group.

Also the ninja problem in RDF is not as big as all of you make it out to be LOL. Firstly, items in there are garbage anyway. Even boes, they cost little to nothing. Hence, nobody gives a **** and everyone is friendly enough to be fair. I don't know where you meet all these "needers" who get nothing out of it.

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I don't meant the debuff time though. It just that usually those guys are dps and it takes time to wait for a tank and healer. For the boe, i can de them and if there are more of them, i can sell them and I do it under the basis that every one of the group has a chance to roll yet i won.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lawwl

You don't get dungeon deserter if you get kicked out of the group.

Also the ninja problem in RDF is not as big as all of you make it out to be LOL. Firstly, items in there are garbage anyway. Even boes, they cost little to nothing. Hence, nobody gives a **** and everyone is friendly enough to be fair. I don't know where you meet all these "needers" who get nothing out of it.

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The problem is that everyone could be a potenital ninja when he uses the "need"-button in rdf. You could get a ban for rolling on a item, where one of the both "needer" has a better use of the stats rather than the other guy. I followed another thread below this one and was really surprised by the explanation of a ninja.

A ninja by warmane:

-Rolling on items where one of three stats isn't ideal for someone. A tank shouldn't roll on a better trength/hit/crit item, when he has a really bad one.
-Rolling on items for off-specc
-Rolling on items for transmog

No ninja by warmane:

-Rolling on agi items as war/dk ((because agi increases the avoid/parry chance for tanks)
-Rolling on items that I already get once and no other person has the permission (a shadow has a epic staff with int/haste/hit. He rolls on the same one, because you have 3 people with strength or agi as main stat and the healer with unideal hit-stat of the staff in grp)
-Rolling on every potentially used but not equipped item to sell/disenchant it after the run (a warlock could roll on every green item, if there are good stats on it. But he has the motivation to make money with it after the dungeon is completed)

This "ninjain" is created by warmane, because every click on the need-button is a potential "you get a ban"-button. The defnition of ninjaing is quite different what blizzard has understood of it. Need-before-greed was created to reduce ninjaing in rdf and they even improved it technically later on. But warmane doesn't really differentiate between a real ninja and a made ninja. Yeah this system is arbitrary and suspect (you could see it in the definition above). They copied wow and are using need-before-greed, they even use the word "ninja" but have non-blizzlike principles.

There are many ways to make it better:

-Improve the need-before-greed function and let people not roll on items, when they aren't perfect (but not wrong) for them. A disc couldn't roll on item with int/haste/hit, when hit isn't ideal for him(for pve, hit is important for healers in pvp).
-Write in a paper, what's your understanding of a ninja, so that innocent newbies aren't getting banned after
-Create individual loot (MoP/WoD already did it).
-Give ninjas a 30 min deserter when grp kicks them (he thinks about it after getting kicked while the run)

4 ideas to solve it....but it's easier to answer hundreds of posts/tickets and dispense bans to confused players (/Wave Smyth)

(btw I'm not afflicted of ninjaing, but I don't support this arbitrariness and how gms try to defend it in other threads. Some of them can't differentiate between rdf and raids, that's why I stop writing about ninjaing and give thanks to the members here. I could also have got a ban if I rolled on that staff with int/hit/haste for pvp as healer later on)

Kind regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brian211

Is it considered a ninja when I hit need on a BoE heals trink? I'm a feral / balance dudu btw. and planning on selling off the trink on AH.

Ty.

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Yeah it is. You have a bad habit to roll "need" on the item, that you don't use after and try to make money with. Blizzard prevented to sell such items in other expansions later on, when the needer rolled for it without using/equipping. It was soulbounded after, that's why lot of ninjas stopped stealing items (no success). You should see that enchanters could disenchant this item or other guys could sell it after they fairly won it (coincident). You betrayed honest players with a such manner and that's why it is ninjaing.

Kind regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kishia

The problem is that everyone could be a potenital ninja when he uses the "need"-button in rdf. You could get a ban for rolling on a item, where one of the both "needer" has a better use of the stats rather than the other guy. I followed another thread below this one and was really surprised by the explanation of a ninja.

A ninja by warmane:

-Rolling on items where one of three stats isn't ideal for someone. A tank shouldn't roll on a better trength/hit/crit item, when he has a really bad one.
-Rolling on items for off-specc
-Rolling on items for transmog

No ninja by warmane:

-Rolling on agi items as war/dk ((because agi increases the avoid/parry chance for tanks)
-Rolling on items that I already get once and no other person has the permission (a shadow has a epic staff with int/haste/hit. He rolls on the same one, because you have 3 people with strength or agi as main stat and the healer with unideal hit-stat of the staff in grp)
-Rolling on every potentially used but not equipped item to sell/disenchant it after the run (a warlock could roll on every green item, if there are good stats on it. But he has the motivation to make money with it after the dungeon is completed)

This "ninjain" is created by warmane, because every click on the need-button is a potential "you get a ban"-button. The defnition of ninjaing is quite different what blizzard has understood of it. Need-before-greed was created to reduce ninjaing in rdf and they even improved it technically later on. But warmane doesn't really differentiate between a real ninja and a made ninja. Yeah this system is arbitrary and suspect (you could see it in the definition above). They copied wow and are using need-before-greed, they even use the word "ninja" but have non-blizzlike principles.

There are many ways to make it better:

-Improve the need-before-greed function and let people not roll on items, when they aren't perfect (but not wrong) for them. A disc couldn't roll on item with int/haste/hit, when hit isn't ideal for him(for pve, hit is important for healers in pvp).
-Write in a paper, what's your understanding of a ninja, so that innocent newbies aren't getting banned after
-Create individual loot (MoP/WoD already did it).
-Give ninjas a 30 min deserter when grp kicks them (he thinks about it after getting kicked while the run)

4 ideas to solve it....but it's easier to answer hundreds of posts/tickets and dispense bans to confused players (/Wave Smyth)

(btw I'm not afflicted of ninjaing, but I don't support this arbitrariness and how gms try to defend it in other threads. Some of them can't differentiate between rdf and raids, that's why I stop writing about ninjaing and give thanks to the members here. I could also have got a ban if I rolled on that staff with int/hit/haste for pvp as healer later on)

Kind regards

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Has Mercy or Obnoxious actually said that last post's OP actually ninjaed the item and he deserves a ban? I've read the comments and couldn't catch them actually saying that. Maybe I've simply missed because of length and quantity of comments, could you link where they actually think that way? According to them, it was MORALLY WRONG to simply need on a ranged DPS item as a healer, when you have ranged DPS who needs the item. It was straight up rude, selfish. And I agree with that. However, that does not mean that's what "ninja" is according to warmane. OP actually wrote a ticket to GM about this and he did not get punished whatsoever for this because it was still an upgrade at the end of the day.

I go RDF HC daily with 2 of my characters - I simply NEVER meet these ninjas. Nobody needs it for enchanting because enchanting mats are ridiculously cheap right now. Besides the time where a player actually needs an item, people only need on things you have to sell like battered hilt and EPIC stuff from ICC dungeons. And if it's a rare occasion where someone actually needs it for an upgrade, a lot of people don't find a problem of giving the item to them. People are actually friendly here, community here is actually good. Sure, dicks and ninjas exist, they will always exist. But it's not as BIG of a problem as all of you make it out to be. It''s not a frequent issue.

I fully agree about writing black on white (or white on black in warmane's case xD) what EXACTLY is dungeon ninjaing. I found only raid ninjaing in forums while trying to look for dungeon ninja rules before posting this comment. So if there actually is a post with these rules, it should be easy to find for a filthy casual like myself.

Giving 30 mins deserter to a kicked player is not a good idea. More often than not, you kick each other if you want to disband - either all 5 of you agree you do not want to go this dungeon, or you get 1 afk/offliner that's also a tank. Instead of forcing myself to finish what I've started I'd much rather regroup. (yelling and demanding to kick you when other 4 people want to continue is totally not okay, but what I'm saying is that everyone agrees about that most of the time).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kishia

The problem is that everyone could be a potenital ninja when he uses the "need"-button in rdf. You could get a ban for rolling on a item, where one of the both "needer" has a better use of the stats rather than the other guy. I followed another thread below this one and was really surprised by the explanation of a ninja.

A ninja by warmane:

-Rolling on items where one of three stats isn't ideal for someone. A tank shouldn't roll on a better trength/hit/crit item, when he has a really bad one.
-Rolling on items for off-specc
-Rolling on items for transmog

No ninja by warmane:

-Rolling on agi items as war/dk ((because agi increases the avoid/parry chance for tanks)
-Rolling on items that I already get once and no other person has the permission (a shadow has a epic staff with int/haste/hit. He rolls on the same one, because you have 3 people with strength or agi as main stat and the healer with unideal hit-stat of the staff in grp)
-Rolling on every potentially used but not equipped item to sell/disenchant it after the run (a warlock could roll on every green item, if there are good stats on it. But he has the motivation to make money with it after the dungeon is completed)

This "ninjain" is created by warmane, because every click on the need-button is a potential "you get a ban"-button. The defnition of ninjaing is quite different what blizzard has understood of it. Need-before-greed was created to reduce ninjaing in rdf and they even improved it technically later on. But warmane doesn't really differentiate between a real ninja and a made ninja. Yeah this system is arbitrary and suspect (you could see it in the definition above). They copied wow and are using need-before-greed, they even use the word "ninja" but have non-blizzlike principles.

There are many ways to make it better:

-Improve the need-before-greed function and let people not roll on items, when they aren't perfect (but not wrong) for them. A disc couldn't roll on item with int/haste/hit, when hit isn't ideal for him(for pve, hit is important for healers in pvp).
-Write in a paper, what's your understanding of a ninja, so that innocent newbies aren't getting banned after
-Create individual loot (MoP/WoD already did it).
-Give ninjas a 30 min deserter when grp kicks them (he thinks about it after getting kicked while the run)

4 ideas to solve it....but it's easier to answer hundreds of posts/tickets and dispense bans to confused players (/Wave Smyth)

(btw I'm not afflicted of ninjaing, but I don't support this arbitrariness and how gms try to defend it in other threads. Some of them can't differentiate between rdf and raids, that's why I stop writing about ninjaing and give thanks to the members here. I could also have got a ban if I rolled on that staff with int/hit/haste for pvp as healer later on)

Kind regards

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Sigh,you are still wrong on so many levels,even after the previous posts by Mercy tried to explain it to you.

You need for MS items that fit your main specs itemization(ie no hit for healers,spirit is mainly a healer stat except for shamans and paladins etc),and for BoE.You can roll need for offspec if the others own better/same as the one dropped.
You greed for offspec and items you want to sell/roll DE for mats.
You pass what you absolutely don't want to be bothered by.
Is this really rocket science for some,after the game is live for 14 years?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SilverFlash

Sigh,you are still wrong on so many levels,even after the previous posts by Mercy tried to explain it to you.

You need for MS items that fit your main specs itemization(ie no hit for healers,spirit is mainly a healer stat except for shamans and paladins etc),and for BoE.You can roll need for offspec if the others own better/same as the one dropped.
You greed for offspec and items you want to sell/roll DE for mats.
You pass what you absolutely don't want to be bothered by.
Is this really rocket science for some,after the game is live for 14 years?

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That sounds so lovely on paper but the problem that we are discussing comes up when items designed for your off spec are pretty damn good for your main spec as well, especially compared to your current items. If you are a paladin, then it is pretty damn linear. You either need on defense rating, intellect or strength. There really are no debatable situations. But if you are disc priest and an item comes up that happens to have a hit rating, that doesn't mean that item is garbage for you and you need it solely for off spec because you WILL use that specific item with haste, spell power and spirit, who happens to have hit rating on your MAIN spec. It is very rude to "steal" it from a ranged dps who needs it as well, since the item is primarily designed for ranged DPSes, not healers, but it should not be bannable. And it is not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lawwl

That sounds so lovely on paper but the problem that we are discussing comes up when items designed for your off spec are pretty damn good for your main spec as well, especially compared to your current items. If you are a paladin, then it is pretty damn linear. You either need on defense rating, intellect or strength. There really are no debatable situations. But if you are disc priest and an item comes up that happens to have a hit rating, that doesn't mean that item is garbage for you and you need it solely for off spec because you WILL use that specific item with haste, spell power and spirit, who happens to have hit rating on your MAIN spec. It is very rude to "steal" it from a ranged dps who needs it as well, since the item is primarily designed for ranged DPSes, not healers, but it should not be bannable. And it is not.

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Idk about your disc list,but mine is almost the same as the shadow list(head/legs/trinkets are the only differences - Val'anyr is considered bis for both specs in case of progress raiding).And afaik spirit and hit rating can't coexist on gear.If i wanted to gear up another priest it would go: mana 22k unbuffed(enough for raiding)>sp>crit for disc.Items with hit rating would be only ok if i'm the only one eligible for the loot/the dps agrees i can take it.
The one time when you use an item with hit rating as a healer would be as a holy paladin,with fester hc legs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SilverFlash

Idk about your disc list,but mine is almost the same as the shadow list(head/legs/trinkets are the only differences - Val'anyr is considered bis for both specs in case of progress raiding).And afaik spirit and hit rating can't coexist on gear.If i wanted to gear up another priest it would go: mana 22k unbuffed(enough for raiding)>sp>crit for disc.Items with hit rating would be only ok if i'm the only one eligible for the loot/the dps agrees i can take it.
The one time when you use an item with hit rating as a healer would be as a holy paladin,with fester hc legs.

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That sounds lovely on paper, again. If I were priest, I would be 6.5k with a gear from halion and lk 25hc. : ) When you are a fresh level 80 sitting with clean 1.8k gearscore with a cloak you got from a ****ing quest in Nagrand, you would kill for an epic cloak with sp + intellect(or whatever stats are the most useful for DP). Oh but that same item happens to have a hit rating? WELL HELL NA, YOU ARE BIS OR NOTHING! Would it be much better if instead of hit rating, an item would give you mp5? Sure. But is it not an incredible upgrade FOR YOUR MAIN SPEC because of it?

It's not about what do YOU need, it's about what also ALL the others need.
If you have a cloack from Nagrand, and doing a PoS with your holy priest + 4 warrios a hit + sp cloack drops, you were lucky and you are going to improve your item with something that was not intended for a holy priest.
But if you are doing PoS with a Mage who needs it, then you do not deserve rolling need on it. Period. You are not playing this game alone, realize that the world is not turning around you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lawpriero

It's not about what do YOU need, it's about what also ALL the others need.
If you have a cloack from Nagrand, and doing a PoS with your holy priest + 4 warrios a hit + sp cloack drops, you were lucky and you are going to improve your item with something that was not intended for a holy priest.
But if you are doing PoS with a Mage who needs it, then you do not deserve rolling need on it. Period. You are not playing this game alone, realize that the world is not turning around you.

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I don't have delusions of grandure mate, my characters are pretty much full bis so it is kinda irrelevant to me personally, I am just commenting for the sake of discussion so keep your personal insults and tips of this sort to yourself. : )

Why does one unnecesary stat makes you unworthy of competing for it? As I said, it is rude to not give it to the mage or SP who needs it as well even if you've won the roll. It is selfish, bad manners - all this stuff. I agree with that. What I am saying that it's not as extreme to deserve a ban for it. It's a very good item FOR YOUR MAIN SPEC (not off spec). One unnecesary stat does not make it a bad item for you. So trying to get it shouldn't be punishable. At the very worst you can call it a very soft form of ninja but why should the punishment be equal as the punishment for a BiS char who needs everything for selling purposes? Both cases are wrong but one is way more wrong than the other and banning both players for the same length is stupid.

Also, even if I am wrong and you are right, if a disc priest who needs hit cloak WAS a ninja who deserves a punishment, that's definitely not self-explanatory for a new player so it should be written somewhere in rules, which I was incapable of finding.