Strength vs Crit (and agility)

When i see builds or guides online, they all say that strength comes after hit and arp, but from doing the math, the % dps gained from a higher crit chance (as agility and more crit rating gives) seems to be higher than the equivalent dps gain from more strength.
Extra crit means your deep wounds talent has a higher uptime, and your t10 set bonus has a higher uptime. You get more rage, and with the glyph of heroic strike, you can use heroic strike way more often than with a lower crit chance.
The crit chance in % can be seen, long term, as a % increase in your dps, and it scales off of the Impale talent.

So if the equivalent dps gain from crit exceeds the dps gain from the attack power (via strength), why then, is strength prioritized?
Would love to see why/if i'm wrong, so any and all informed responses are welcome.

Your priority is

1. Hit soft cap - beyond that hit rating is the worst stat as it only increases white damage, and mostly offhand at that (due to heroic strike)
2. Expertise cap (for removing dodges)
3. ArP/STR - Depends on your current gear level, STR is superior until you can reasonably expect to aim for the ArP cap... roughly around 25man T10 gear (264).
4. Crit - Always behind STR unless your gear set is gimped, WOTLK has extreme levels of crit compared to other expansions.
5. Haste - Scales more at higher gear levels by default of synergy but it's a weaker stat.
6. Hit - Above soft cap, as already mentioned your weakest stat.

As a reference, for a 25man normal geared (BIS 25m normal) Fury Warrior without Shadowmourne, your SEP/Pawn values will be similar to this.

1 STR : 1.0
2 Ap : 0.7607
1 Crit : 0.9281
1 Agil : 0.7720
1 ArP : 1.3802
1 Haste : 0.7876
1 Hit: : 0.5445
1 EXP : 1.5

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SegaRally

Your priority is

1. Hit soft cap - beyond that hit rating is the worst stat as it only increases white damage, and mostly offhand at that (due to heroic strike)
2. Expertise cap (for removing dodges)
3. ArP/STR - Depends on your current gear level, STR is superior until you can reasonably expect to aim for the ArP cap... roughly around 25man T10 gear (264).
4. Crit - Always behind STR unless your gear set is gimped, WOTLK has extreme levels of crit compared to other expansions.
5. Haste - Scales more at higher gear levels by default of synergy but it's a weaker stat.
6. Hit - Above soft cap, as already mentioned your weakest stat.

As a reference, for a 25man normal geared (BIS 25m normal) Fury Warrior without Shadowmourne, your SEP/Pawn values will be similar to this.

1 STR : 1.0
2 Ap : 0.7607
1 Crit : 0.9281
1 Agil : 0.7720
1 ArP : 1.3802
1 Haste : 0.7876
1 Hit: : 0.5445
1 EXP : 1.5

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^ this

Point per point STR is always way better than agilíity. That being said there are some agi items, that their strength counterparts. (wrists, back, rings) They are simply better itemized. (there is this hidden thing called item stat budget, that allows stat alocations on items and str items have more of this budged put into stamina)

f.e. agi vs str ashen verdict ring:
88 agi
84 stamina
135 AP
59 crit
59 hit

vs

99 str
107 stam
59 crit
59 hit

proc, hit and crit are the same, and stam value for dps is 0, so it goes down to 88 agi + 135 AP vs 99 str. Accoring to SegaRallys stat weights (they change a bit with each item, but not much) it would go like 88*0,772 + (135/2)*0,7607 vs 99 = 67,936 + 51,34 vs 99 -> 119,28 vs 99. Agi ring provides more dps value.

In BiS gear haste even outperforms crit by a tiny little bit.
So when u are hit capped, 10str/10haste gems for yellow sockets are actually slightly better than 10str/10crit.
Same applies to the cloak enchant with haste.

I still prefer crit over haste though because I also use parts of my pve gear for pvp.

^same comparison can be done for Quel'Delar str vs agi swords, EoF str vs agi cloaks, EoT str vs agi rings etc. The point is, basically, that str items have too much stamina, eating away at the items' stats budget that could have been allocated in a DPS stat instead. There are very few exceptions to this rule, where str items actually have good DPS allocation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by taralej

There are very few exceptions to this rule, where str items actually have good DPS allocation.

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Even there http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50618 is the better choice.

Ok so i think i got this right: Strength is better than agility because it gives more dps per point than agility. That said, some agility items have more of their stats weighted towards DPS, so certain agility items will do better than strength. So having only strength items is bad, and the same goes for agility, with the best being mostly strength items, with some off-slots as agility. Thanks for all the good responses

http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary
This is the end game BiS list.
No other itemisation, aka full Crit and no Haste, or some extra Strength over Haste or Crit, wont give you more DMG. This itemisation overall will bring the most DPS out of your warr ( player skills not included).

BiS PvE profs should be Engineering and Jewelcrafting.

With that gemming i have:
1400 Armor Penetration,
62% crit raid buffed, which is a perfect soft crit cap.

If you are horde, best PvE only race should be Troll, while Orc is great if u want to both PvP and PvE.
One could say that for Alliance, Draenei is a better choice if u want to PvE only...

As for stats overall, you should go for crit, untill u reach white hit crit cap, which is:
100 + 4.8 - 24 - (27 + 8) = 61.8%.
4.8 - crit suppression.
24 - glancing.
27 + 8 - miss and hit chance.
This means that if you get 61.8% crit chance, you wont have a normal melee hit, they will all be Crits or Miss or Glancing (if you are Expertise - 26, capped and are attacking boss from behind or sides).

After that, you should try to get as much Attack Power (Strength) and Haste as you can.
Meaning, 10str10haste gems, Umbrage and Aldrianas, cos of its stat balance overall, and so on...

Talent build, if u want a bit of extra greedy DPS:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#Lhb...0eRVzAo:GMoz0o
Altho, even here i would go 1 less point in Enrage and get Heroic Fury for extra mobility.

P.S. Enchants on Wrist and Gloves should be 50 and 44 attack power, the ones im using are just for trolls...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gnimo

http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary
This is the end game BiS list.
No other itemisation, aka full Crit and no Haste, or some extra Strength over Haste or Crit, wont give you more DMG. This itemisation overall will bring the most DPS out of your warr ( player skills not included).

BiS PvE profs should be Engineering and Jewelcrafting.

With that gemming i have:
1400 Armor Penetration,
62% crit raid buffed, which is a perfect soft crit cap.

If you are horde, best PvE only race should be Troll, while Orc is great if u want to both PvP and PvE.
One could say that for Alliance, Draenei is a better choice if u want to PvE only...

As for stats overall, you should go for crit, untill u reach white hit crit cap, which is:
100 + 4.8 - 24 - (27 + 8) = 61.8%.
4.8 - crit suppression.
24 - glancing.
27 + 8 - miss and hit chance.
This means that if you get 61.8% crit chance, you wont have a normal melee hit, they will all be Crits or Miss or Glancing (if you are Expertise - 26, capped and are attacking boss from behind or sides).

After that, you should try to get as much Attack Power (Strength) and Haste as you can.
Meaning, 10str10haste gems, Umbrage and Aldrianas, cos of its stat balance overall, and so on...

Talent build, if u want a bit of extra greedy DPS:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#Lhb...0eRVzAo:GMoz0o
Altho, even here i would go 1 less point in Enrage and get Heroic Fury for extra mobility.

P.S. Enchants on Wrist and Gloves should be 50 and 44 attack power, the ones im using are just for trolls...

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heart of crusade/totem of wrath gives another 3% chance to crit, so "perfect soft crit cap" full raid buffed is 58.8%

I did not forget about that.

You wont have "Heart of Crusade" on every target, especialy on LoD.

Elemental Shaman in raid... lol.

...meaning... its better to have extra 3% chance than to have less...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gnimo

I did not forget about that.

You wont have "Heart of Crusade" on every target, especialy on LoD.

Elemental Shaman in raid... lol.

...meaning... its better to have extra 3% chance than to have less...

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why do u need heart of crudae on every target on lod? you cant auto attack every target anyway

I guess Valks and multiple Ragings are not a thing there.
Oh wait...

Even so, go get 59-62% crit as Warrior and take a look at your melee strikes after the fight using Recount. Tell me if all of them wer crits on that encounter.
I can save u some time...
They wont be.

I dont want to be a smartass, nor do i want to make this personal, but from both theoretical and my own expirience on that encounter, i can safely say that sometimes even 62 is not enough for some reason...
What i can see from your words is that you on the other hand have no clue what you are talking about, but yet you keep going...

Gnimo, you're making a fuss about adds. What dike meant was that you'll have heart on bosses anyway and that's what matters.

because the adds that should be dpsd down are not important, right :)

@Taralej
You wont go below 60% crit with these items anyway.
They have the best overall stat gain, so going for more Strength, as in Strength item counterparts, will result in going for less overall stats, which will never be a good thing.
The only thing that you can change is couple of 10str10haste gems instead of 10str10crit ones, which again can be a bad thing in some shorter fights where Crit might be better...

LoD is the only fight that matters tbh.
If your char is able to provide the best performance on that fight, it will do the same on most other bosses in and outside of icc.
And again, 62%+3% crit will only help your dps rather than to reduce it duo to good crit multiplier that Fury War have.
Even tho your melee wont benefit from that 3%, other attacks will...
Where a little bit of extra pure Strength/Attack Power wont make a big of a diference.