How good is HaT? Is it worth having over Master of Subtlety when I am solely doing wpvp and bgs? And what is an ideal duel/wpvp, bg sub build? Skipping Hat and heightened senses to put points into MoS and 5/5 Deadlieness?
How good is HaT? Is it worth having over Master of Subtlety when I am solely doing wpvp and bgs? And what is an ideal duel/wpvp, bg sub build? Skipping Hat and heightened senses to put points into MoS and 5/5 Deadlieness?
Master of Subtlety is in my honest opinion the most overrated talent for rogues, 10% isn't enough because people tend to not take Initiative when picking it. The best talent by far is Improved Gouge followed by Relentless Strikes, then both Honor Among Thieves and Initiative.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedo
Honor Among Thieves procs from both your party's crits as from your non finisher ability crits(it does on finishers but counts towards the same finisher so it's only good when u're at < 5 cps), even throw crits grant a cp.(You can play sniper rogue if you got high crit rating spam throw and with cps use deadly throw, macro them together for optimal effect, it's really funny tbh when you just see ppl running.) Also => HaT: if your backstab crits => extra cp => always good
Combine that with Initiative which gives an extra combo point to stealth openers, boom you get 4 cps if it crits, that's just insane.
Now look to shadowdance what do you do in shadow dance you burst, you stealth you cheap and you are possibly already at 4 cps, if you did premed you are already at five, so either you dance ambush(with handrocket) kidney or you kidney dance ambush(with handrocket). Note that you did a finishing move so with Relentless strikes at 5cps you just get 25 energy back. Energy back = more abilities in dance, you start using stealth openers in dance(depending on what you need in this situation probably ambush for dmg) -> 4/5cp -> evis + 25 energy -> more stealth openers -> 4/5 cp - > evis +25 energy. Note that any opener can give you up to 4 cp without premed, and if you do evis at 4 cp and rng decides it to be a crit it adds a cp to that evis so you basicly did a 5cp crit evis. Since you swim in combo points, you swim in finishing moves and you always get 25 energy back, giving you the best momentum in Shadow Dance. Way better than just spamming ambush. Go test it on a dummy, it's hard to explain every little detail but you'll see.
You know when a rogue is bad when they don't use Initiative and 1 point in to HaT and instead use Master of Subtlety. Or even worse they don't even use Improved Eviscerate and instead use 5/5 Malice, horror indeed. These kind of rogues just press ambush(wouldn't even surprise me if they use the glyph of ambush), and that is how far their mechanical skills goes, they are the ones that set the stereotype for rogues.
The only valid way to use Master of Subtlety is if you are either A) Human that only does arena, you remove Master of Deception cuz eh not that important in arena if you are good at positioning and put 3/3 MoS, or you are again prob human and remove 1 point from MoD and put 1 point in MoS so you got the initial 4% which is more than the 3% that comes after for each point.
I basicly prefer 12/3/56 for all occasions, maybe MoS has more use in duels which will probably be the case, but I don't notice it that much. You are guarenteed to do more abilities in shadow dance using my way which makes up(prob even more) for the loss of 10% for 6 seconds, which starts at the moment you leave stealth so you gotta make that time frame count.
As a human, you don't really need Heightened Senses, though in wpvp you face a lot of rogues + the rng resist on priest fears etc, oh baby that's the good stuff. Deadliness should always be 4/5 or 5/5 imo, you are a burst class, it provides constant extra dmg
Man it's like I'm going on a rant, I should make a guide so I can rant forever.
Thank you for the answer again.Now with your knowledge shown in your comments, you seem to be capable of making a relevant guide for sub. Plus there isnt one that is up to date and really in-depth. Maybe when the time serves you you can "rant" up one haha. P.S. what is your rogues name to look him up on the armory?Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoosnoo
I actually dont agree fully, yes MoS isnt the best in arenas but for pure world pvp and BGs where youll run something like 600-800 resiliance with max arp or so and only focus on ganking someone 100-0 you want the most damage you can get, and 10% is very noticeable. And shadowstep + 19k ambush on a mage or pr is pretty fun (with berserk, trinket procs and idally arp potion).Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoosnoo
Id drop improved gouge for 3/3 MoS (and 3/3 HaT) JUST for bgs/wpvp. For duels and arenas id run the normal spec (dual spec ftw). You could even go for some points in lethality to get even more damage out of your openers (when you dont have dance up).
Also, the talent helps if you are undeageared as there all damage matters, for a rogue its very important to be able to do as much damage as possible (compared to all other classes, we are very glasscannon-y). The super basic strat of open (with or without dance), force trinket blind trinket, sap twice to reset DRs and open again to kill only works if you have the damage to pull it off (as once the enemy isnt stunned anymore you wont survive very long vs a geared character). And MoS helps with that damage.
So while the normal spec is better usually, MoS has its place. But to get back to OPs question, its not really about MoS vs HaT, its more MoS vs Utility talents that dont really perform as well in pure 1v1 gank or die scenarios.
I can agree that the 10% would help with your playstyle, but dropping Improved Gouge is crazy for a person with my playstyle, it's my favorite ability if you pick Improved Gouge you got a 5.5 second gouge if the target has no DR or isn't a paladin etc. It's good to make a 1v2 => 1v1, you can gouge someone when you are at 5 seconds CD on your kidney to make it come off cd and reset since you generate the energy you used on gouge + a little more back in a full gouge(WITHOUT the glyph) + 1-2 cps cuz of HaT, then full kidney. The best part of all is that you get a free re-stealth ticket with improved gouge because the combat timer is 5 seconds and gouge is 5.5, but it's always better to run for LoS/outrange and re-stealth for the guarantee. The last one would be really big for any form of PvP. I've been only doing basically BGs and WPvP the last year and I wouldn't dream of giving it up. That being said it has a lot to do with the players preferred playstyle, if you barely use gouge then of course don't run the talent. I on the other hand play to CC/Control the fight first then when I see my opportunity I will hit play on my thomas the tank engine theme, pop dance, and take them on a ride on the pain train.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meowto
Yikes consumablesQuote:
Originally Posted by Meowto
http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/talentsQuote:
Originally Posted by nedo
Well you both have valid standpoints. In my humble opinion, I think that gear is one big factor that determines the selection of talents. If you are undergeared the damage talents will help out to close that gap. Later on when you get gear and become confident in your damage output, swapping the damage talents for a bit more control seems reasonable to have that edge over your opponent. And ofc the playstyle dictates your talent choices most of the time.
TL;DR lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Snoosnoo
Repiola <3
Lmao Fapicola, TLDR: Git gut, git http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=51701Quote:
Originally Posted by pornocox