284 versus OLD AT competitive pvp

Sorry about my bad english don't have time or interest to speak or write better. Not now, maybe never. Already got my own languange and bad english thats enough for me.

Ill start with the suggestion first so everyone understand the thing im crying about and after that ill open up it little bit. So you can understand the point of topic and suggestion.

So im suggesting to put players who has even one of these items equipped: 264ilvl / 284ilvl / 277Ilvl) to their own bracket in battlegrounds and arenas so the gameplay stays competitive and interesting for others who dont have such items. Now please keep reading and focus. ->

Everyone has seen these full wrath + SM + double trinket things now for few years in row.
Thing is these didnt exist in OLD arena tournament or 284 ilvl items neither. Gameplay was competitive and not relying on few arena setups (2v2 holy paladin SM arms warrior ladder is full of them yippee ) Dueling & wpvp wasnt full of Shadowmournes + double trinket procs. Resilience was balanced for such Ilvls that OLD AT had. Not for this current Ilvl or gameplay dmg is too high even between two bis pvp toons.

Problem is If you want to be competitive in this game and really enjoy it. You have to donate for full wrath + SM + ICC25 trinkets if you want to play plate class. Other problem is that the dmg of SM classes is too much for other classes. + Subt hits too hard, mage bursts too hard, lock ele bursts too hard. Old AT ilvls were enough and balanced damage was reasonable.

Second Problem is that there isnt way to get these items legit way, maybe PVE section is posible but not full wraths.
Only way to obtain full 6.5gs pvp toon legit way is to play in blackrock and have a start with full rele + and having lot of skills for 2v2 or 3v3. (Not me, OR nor MOST of the players in warmane realms and lastly Not YOU unless ure atleast top25-50 player) (check rating reqs for wraths and compare them with top50 lists ratings. there is your lowest req for wrath shoulders!kinda high? and all opponents BIS and ure not! If your skills can lift you there without donating then I dont think you have to even read this topic and prob find your name from youtube. "1 hour video from last night stream: playing ranked 2.2k 2v2 with my god friend"

Lastly this change wont harm anyone neither full bis toons or players like me who dont have bis gear or wraths and want to collect the pieces legit way keeping it interesting. Full/half bis toons can fight with each other and rest of us can fight opponents without advantages.

Edit: Seems there is 2 Brackets at this moment high and low. Still lot of players come to low bracket with Shadowmournes and bis trinkets By abusing the ilvl system. Thing is it would be easier to put people automatically to higher bracket if they have even ONE 264-277-284 ilvl item so the starting bracket stays competitive for players with starting 80lvl items - furious/rele - pve hc epics/t9 items aka 215-232 ilvls. Which are obtainable with honor (furious). Reles with honor + little bit Arena points.
And pve.

Second edit: why everything in life has Weight classes, brackets for diff skill caps well... check prime Mike Tyson destroying heavy bag and put volume up. Think about that the bag would be amateur starter boxer. He simply dies. End of story. Brackets are like that in here. And then someone comes to say "noob just l2p" "again one sad crying when got killed by shadowmourne" DONT worry! Ill think ure the heavy bag and crying then everyone yells at you "l2 box noob dont cry about getting owned By mike tyson" when ure literally dying in pain ribs crushed lungs ruptured By sharp parts of crushed ribs + brain goes like 2 mermaids playing ping pong with them. Sorry got the last laugh ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voeAGBBoXnI (2011) no 264,277,284 items!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antihero

So im suggesting to put players who has even one of these items equipped: 264ilvl / 284ilvl / 277Ilvl) to their own bracket in battlegrounds and arenas so the gameplay stays competitive and interesting for others who dont have such items.

---

Like that the starter gear of Blackrock players would be BiS for the low gear bracket since all items are close to 264 ilvl.
Blackrock players would be the kings of the low gear bracket. They would slaughter Icecrown and Lordaeron lowies in BG and Arena and don't have to fear donors since everybody with a +264 item would be in the high bracket.

Like that nobody on Blackrock would donate or grind gear in the game. Everybody would a avoid to get a +264 item so he can stay in the low gear bracket.

Nobody but Blackrock players would benefit from this suggestion.

Everybody benefits already but not the starters. Blackrock already benefits. Both benefits when +264-284ilvl moved to own bracket, starters more not instantly but in meantime. Reles get their "king status" but the cap between 215-284 is too much. 215-258 is acceptable because you can get furious with honor and reles with honor + arena points. Instead of totally attacking against my suggestion and finding the weak points like you did and putting me down. Ill let you know that im very aware of this problem that reles goes the king status after that but I didnt find the better solution for this crappish nightmare. Atleast I gave the direction to other people try to come up with their ideas to fix the problem. 100 brains always better than one brain and few hecklers like you.
Lastly your heckling gave me idea. Why not put 258-288 on their own bracket so the furious is the king of the jungle in lower bracket but fix it lil a bit. IF YOU wear single one 258-288 ilvl item youre instanty in higher bracket. This makes people keeping their gear competitive for others when collecting/upgrading their gear past furious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antihero

Ill let you know that im very aware of this problem that reles goes the king status after that but I didnt find the better solution for this crappish nightmare.

---

I think it's generally not a good idea to implement arena gear brackets. It devides the arena playerbase and thus it increases the queue times, especially of the 3s bracket which activity is already low. Ppl would abuse the system by creating twinks which are fine tuned to the low gear arena bracket as it is already in BGs the case.

Highend PvE gear is indeed an issue in arena because it favors certain setups and makes PvP quite unbalanced. I believe the best solution would be that upon entering arena highend PvE items are scaled down so they are as powerful as 264 ilvl gear.
Depending on the ilvl of the PvE piece the stats are reduced by a certain percentage. Hit and arp should be excepted because when these stats are scaled down players would be under the hit cap upon entering arena and prot warr would no longer have 100% arp. The solution to that issue could be that instead of downscaling arp and hit, ap and crit are further reduced. For expl, if a item would lose 10 arp from downscaling it loses an additional 20 ap instead. If a item would lose 10 hit it loses 10 crit instead.

The advantage of downscaling is that donors would be still able to use their gear in arena. With ilvl restrictions in arena it would make donated gear unusable which would make donors mad.

have been spectating 2v2 arena matches now. Just ended watching top1 holy paladin/arms warrior match against mirror team. Thing is that r1 team warrior had bis gear with pve parts and underdog warrior had same gear but with reles. OFF set, trinkets, weapons all the same but main set was wrath vs rele. Pressure of the match was warrior hitting the warrior. TANK AND SPANK between two warrs. Difference was that wrath warr made +100k more dmg than rele warrior. I think that tells kinda much how toxic wraths are with pve off set + SM + double 25icc trinkets. 260k vs 160k total dmg done.

1. Highend PvE gear is indeed an issue in arena because it favors certain setups and makes PvP quite unbalanced. I believe the best solution would be that upon entering arena highend PvE items are scaled down so they are as powerful as 264 ilvl gear. ---- Something need to be done because this ruins the whole game.
2. The advantage of downscaling is that donors would be still able to use their gear in arena. With ilvl restrictions in arena it would make donated gear unusable which would make donors mad. ---- yeah it just makes them mad when you dont have advantage over legit players or the game comes competitive.
I think there is thousand of ways to fix this plague. Few of them now suggested in this thread.
ONE more: Put blackrock players in same arena bracket with IC, LORD players WHO has gear over rele or something. Rest of us can play arena in fair manners. and maybe join the higher bracket later when the high end gear is obtained playing against fair enemys.

Things are like this because its only way to get profit from this business idea. Whole business idea is donations. Donations give way more profit than it costs to maintains warmane realms at all. Yeah its good idea and ill thumb up for that. no negativity. But still miss the OLD AT idea. Neither no negativity towards warmane staff. Giving xmas gifts and hard work always doing something new for us and fixing the things + tournaments with high cash pool. but Things stays like this as long as warmane doesnt have contenter. They keep their monopoly status and determine everything in 3.3.5 SCENE. This message contain some thoughts from my last conversation with old pvp buddys who miss OLD AT too and prob gets me smited or banned but I dont care anymore. Not new if someone who speaks the truth gets punished and silenced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ51...=youtu.be&t=60

I don't remember ever being arena brackets on AT. I remember 90% of the server was 4/5 WF even on starting mmr. Not much of a difference to what you meet today except for the Shadowmourns.

Also the one item idea is really bad. Imagine buying a Wodin's off the AH with rest of your gear being greens or blues and you end up being bracketed with full BiS people because of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antihero

Things are like this because its only way to get profit from this business idea. Whole business idea is donations.

---

When you are already aware of that then you should better come up with a idea that would make PvP balanced without reducing Warmanes income.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mier

When you are already aware of that then you should better come up with a idea that would make PvP balanced without reducing Warmanes income.

---

As you are or was aware about that I tried and picked up the cat on the table. Here we have plenty of ideas change things and its not my arses ache whos income gets hit down or up or on my hands im just player/customer. There is plenty of ways change things without touching profitness of whole business idea and if we are clear here this goes too far we arent staff here. Its just secondary thing If somebody just say how things are rolling or are at this point. Truth is always truth and who just speaks the truth, changing things is not his responsibility. Nothing can evolve or change without propher feedback. Its just how you take things negative or constructive. I like to keep it that way.

But seems we are only ones even trying to come up with new ideas. This looks bad. Seems nobody sees the problems like I do or you. So they are really enjoying the things like they are now. We should stop this until we put our feet on wrong guys toe and get smited. Or we just start to fight each other. I thought this topic would get more attention from more players but was wrong. Now ill keep it low and wait for topic lockout.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sprotess

I don't remember ever being arena brackets on AT. I remember 90% of the server was 4/5 WF even on starting mmr. Not much of a difference to what you meet today except for the Shadowmourns.

Also the one item idea is really bad. Imagine buying a Wodin's off the AH with rest of your gear being greens or blues and you end up being bracketed with full BiS people because of it.

---

We are talking about icc25hc RS25HC epics and mainly of ARP/DMG of those items versus resilience.
"I remember 90% of the server was 4/5 WF" Well hmm funny because my first post had this link. Ill help you out to remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voeAGBBoXnI. I dont see any wrath down here and clearly investigated the whole thing from many sources SO the facts that im putting up here dont only stand in my memories of old AT. I dont trust myself that much. Time always makes things better than they were.

Problem with the Warmane WOTLK realms are Warriors in combination with Ruby Sanctum Heroic items.
The Ruby Sanctum was released on June 22. 2010 and lasted only until December 7. 2010 when Cata was released, which is only 5 months.
For 5 months not many players got the BIS items from the RS so the PVP was balanced. But on Warmane we have RS for 8-9 years and all PVPers are rolling Warrior knowing that they will aquire their items one way or another.

This is the only reason for Warmane PVP unbalance. And now I will post the image which speaks for itself. No discussion needed after it.

https://i.imgur.com/rNWlc8H.png

Top 23 teams = 14 Warriors

We need to nerf the Warrior asap, or at least nerf the Hpal/Warrior combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aryanprince

Problem with the Warmane WOTLK realms are Warriors in combination with Ruby Sanctum Heroic items.
The Ruby Sanctum was released on June 22. 2010 and lasted only until December 7. 2010 when Cata was released, which is only 5 months.
For 5 months not many players got the BIS items from the RS so the PVP was balanced. But on Warmane we have RS for 8-9 years and all PVPers are rolling Warrior knowing that they will aquire their items one way or another.

---

W/o RS gear the situation would be slightly better but not significant because items from ICC 25 HC are also overtuned.
Think of http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50620, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50618, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50670, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=49623, etc.

Warriors would just replace http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=54581 with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50647, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=54578 with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50639 and http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=54590 with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50363 and still roflstomp their opponents.

In fact all PvE items above 264 ilvl are overtuned as they outscale their PvP counterparts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mier

W/o RS gear the situation would be slightly better but not significant because items from ICC 25 HC are also overtuned.
Think of http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50620, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50618, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50670, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=49623, etc.

Warriors would just replace http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=54581 with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50647, http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=54578 with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50639 and http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=54590 with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50363 and still roflstomp their opponents.

In fact all PvE items above 264 ilvl are overtuned as they outscale their PvP counterparts.

---

No no, ICC items are nowhere near RS items. And also, replace STS with DBW? Seriously? They use both now my friend, don't you know?
So:

Penumbra --> Ahn'kahar Onyx Neckguard = -8 STR; -8 Stamina; -5 Crit; - 65 Arp; +60 hit
Apocalypse --> Blood-Soaked Saronite Stompers = -26 STR; -10 Stamina; -7 Crit; -81 Hit; +74 Arp
Sharpened Twilight Scale --> Whispering Fang Skull = -184 ARP; -1472 AP; + 148 crit + 1250 AP;

Now to sum up:
STR = -34;
STAM = -18;
CRIT = +136;
HIT = -21
ARP = -175
AP = -222
--------------------------------------
Stats in negative = -470 (including 175 ARP)

So 470 (combined stats) only RS gives compared to ICC (for STR classes), and most paingul is the ARP that only benefits warrior from plater classes in PVP (For dks I count only Uh and Frost). This is equal to one good trinket extra.
And this is not over yet, STS Items provide better gems, Red and Yellow, compared to blue ones from ICC. So when gemmed red gems, socket bonus provides even more stats.

But true, this is not the only game breaking thing. The main game breaking thing is Resilience gems which Warrior uses. So with almost all PVE gear Warrior still has 1100 resilience which is so funny.

As I said, something needs to be nerfed ASAP, and that should be ether Warrior or Warrior/Hpala combo or Resilience Gems. Because you cant nerf PVE items because of people that play PVE.
That way you wont need stupid mercenary modes, battleground brackets, etc. People would actualy go arenas and would have better chance to gear.

And I am not crying for myself. I have bis War and Dk with Shadowmourne. But my Warrior is times 2 more powerfull in arena compared to my DK which is also bis. Its just not fair to be like that. You face bis War/Hpal combo on 1200 rate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aryanprince

replace STS with DBW? Seriously? They use both now my friend, don't you know?

---

I'm assuming that the warrior plays human. In this case the player would replace StS with DBW and use WFS as second trinket.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aryanprince

Now to sum up:
STR = -34;
STAM = -18;
CRIT = +136;
HIT = -21
ARP = -175
AP = -222
--------------------------------------
Stats in negative = -470 (including 175 ARP)

---

Your calculation has several flaws.
You forgot to substract the +136 crit from the final number and you gave 1 AP as much value as other stats. AP should be devided by 2.

It's anyway pointless to argue about this since we both agree that 284 ilvl gear is overtuned.
My point was that the 277 ilvl gear is still way too strong. Ideally no PvE gear beyond 264 ilvl should exist in arena.

The main problem with PvP right now is Shadowmourne is gamebreaking, PvE 284 Hc are also overtuned for PvP.
The thing is Warmane won't shoot themselves on the foot, this situation makes everyone want this items and donate for them so removing/nerfing them is not an option; customizing the item stats is not viable.

What I would do is let everyone wear whatever they want in BG and have "fun" with their items but give arenas some limitations.

When you try to queue arena with a Shadowmourne you could get a floating red error message saying:
The item level of your gear is too high to queue.

This would improve gameplay already and make people at least, have a better chance to gear up, if warmane wanted they could include 284hc too or more till it is balanced and arenas diversify a bit. It's VERY frustrating to fight the same BIS comp every day at every rating.