Where's the balance between resilience and strength in retri PvP?

Hello,

So I've tried a thing recently. I am full wrathful ( kindof ) + I have glorenzelg. I swapped all my strength gems ( even the JC special +34 str gems in my sword ) to resilience gems just out of curiosity. With the fully new enchants + gems + flask + buffs I have 1500+ resilience and with my survivability based talents + some other little things like the Hand of Salvation glyph + Seal of Light + Judgement of Light + Indestructible Potion etc.... I'm almost immortal even against OP classes in 2v1s. I guess you already know what the problem is. I can't down basically any skilled and properly geared player. Sometimes I can but usually against UH DKs and other Ret Palas the fight only ends when I'm or my opponent is out of mana and has Divine Plea on CD. ( I know you never want to use this in pvp )

I also heard that the resil bonus for reduced crit ends at 1414 and anything above that is useless.

So, fellow retries who engage in PvP. Over the many battles / years, what is best combination that grants a decent amount of survivability but also a fair amount of damage and bursting power? I was rolling with the most basic and most commonly recommended retri pvp build, I had around 1,2k resil and my talents were the usual 0/20/51. I mean it was okay, I had lots of fun with it and I might return to that one if my current build turns out to be useless. I'm also pretty close to getting SM so that will bring a whole different vibe to the story.

xx

Against melee opponents I'd go for the reckoning build with one hand and shield.
I don't think it's worth to go beyond 1200-1300 resilience. You need a healthy balance between str and res.
Keep in mind that str increases your healing and the blocked dmg of your shield. So it's both, a deffensive and offensive stat.

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Originally Posted by mier

Against melee opponents I'd go for the reckoning build with one hand and shield.

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Please stop.
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:(

@Bomessor
It depends on what you're doing, what you're comfortable with, and how much people focus you. If you're playind double dps arena, for example, you'll probably want to be in the higher end of the resilience spectrum (1100-1250), unless you just want to meme on people with 1500 resilience like I used to do. Can be quite entertaining sometimes. For BGs, especially if you have a pocket healer, then you can go for the lower end of the resilience spectrum (600-800).

I play bg's with 900 res on my ret and don't have much trouble with it.
It is however with SM and bis offset so the dmg output makes up for it.
If you are less geared i suggest to go with 1k min.

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Originally Posted by Mercy

Please stop.
:|

:(

@Bomessor
It depends on what you're doing, what you're comfortable with, and how much people focus you. If you're playind double dps arena, for example, you'll probably want to be in the higher end of the resilience spectrum (1100-1250), unless you just want to meme on people with 1500 resilience like I used to do. Can be quite entertaining sometimes. For BGs, especially if you have a pocket healer, then you can go for the lower end of the resilience spectrum (600-800).

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Well, I'm doing BGs and world pvp most of the time. It's kindof funny because using my full survival build that I just described, I tried duieling BiS pvp players. There was an UH DK and after like a 5 minute fight I won by switching to SoR from my current SoL. I was surprised that a ret pala could beat me very very easily wihtout any trouble using the most common pala pvp build and gear. Other classes varied widely but after all I think I'm not getting what I aimed for from this build. I can't go in and burst players, I can't top damage done charts in BGs. I usually top healing done tabs even when there are some medium geared heal in the group rofl.

So my experience is the following:
I'm extremely hard to kill with this build, but is that really a good thing? Standing in a 3v1 fight while not getting killed for a long time but also not killing anyone? Where's the golden ratio? Is there some very difficult-to-master retri paladin aspect that makes a pala really stand out / OP? I meet a lot of 1H mace + shield using palas in wpvp and bgs but they can't really pull it off. The swicthing macro takes up the time of an entire attack and this way the fight lasts forever.

Note: I always make my build for wpvp and BGs and healers are NOT taken into account in this case.

I always find myself hesitating between PvP and PvE. While it's true that I usually do both, sometimes there are very tough / hard moments in pvp where I just say "I'm done with this, all the OP casters and heals, Imma go and play PvE forever". But I always find myself going back to pvp after a while and just accept the fact that I'll never win a fight against a skilled and BiS shadow priest / warlock / mage.

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Originally Posted by Bomesssor

So my experience is the following:
I'm extremely hard to kill with this build, but is that really a good thing? Standing in a 3v1 fight while not getting killed for a long time but also not killing anyone?

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I would say it depends on your perspective. My own perspective of how I choose to play the class, I would consider this my exact goal. A Ret Paladin not dying but also not killing anyone doesn't mean you aren't controlling an opponent or providing utilities to allies to turn the tide of the fight. That's not how I play BGs, because I can typically faceroll kiddos in there regardless of what resilience levels I'm using. However, that is how I play arenas, as I typically would play double dps and my goal is to stay alive, keep my partner alive, and assist them in their killing of the enemy.

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Originally Posted by Bomesssor

Where's the golden ratio?

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As aforementioned, it depends on how you play. If you're fine with being tanky and focusing on your support role, go for more resilience. Otherwise, go for less resilience and go full #YOLOSWAG420BLAZEIT and smoke kiddos.

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Originally Posted by Bomesssor

Is there some very difficult-to-master retri paladin aspect that makes a pala really stand out / OP?

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Yes, actually. And it lies within managing your utilities properly in a team fight, as opposed to trying to dominate all by yourself. You can stomp noobs on your own just fine, but going up against better players, you're going to have to recognize that you're not a Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Bomesssor

I meet a lot of 1H mace + shield using palas in wpvp and bgs but they can't really pull it off. The swicthing macro takes up the time of an entire attack and this way the fight lasts forever.

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Yes, because these are the kiddos that take the path of least resistance to beat out other players of similar skill level to their own. It can only take you so far, though, and Reckoning isn't going to get them anywhere against a truly skilled opponent that understands that if you don't attack them, they don't generate Reckoning procs.

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Originally Posted by Bomesssor

Note: I always make my build for wpvp and BGs and healers are NOT taken into account in this case.

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Somewhere around the mid-range is probably best then, especially if your weapon and off-set pieces are good. Probably somewhere around the 800-1000 resilience range. I strongly suggest putting it to the test and see what works for you.

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Originally Posted by Bomesssor

I always find myself hesitating between PvP and PvE. While it's true that I usually do both, sometimes there are very tough / hard moments in pvp where I just say "I'm done with this, all the OP casters and heals, Imma go and play PvE forever". But I always find myself going back to pvp after a while and just accept the fact that I'll never win a fight against a skilled and BiS shadow priest / warlock / mage.

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Play both. There's nothing wrong with taking breaks when you need them. It's important to remember that it's a game and you should play to have fun. That said, I also think it's important for a top-tier Ret to remember that they are not a Warrior, as I mentioned above. That's one of the few key differences between a "good" Ret and someone who truly masters the class (which is practically non-existent on here). A Ret excels at two things. Burst damage and utility. That makes it a very niche pick for pvp. You don't have a mortal strike effect. You don't have burst damage that is unaffected by dispels. You don't have strong sustain damage outside of your burst window. You don't have offensive dispels. Your CC isn't great. The better pvp classes will have, AT A MINIMUM, 3 of these categories - usually 4. A Ret has only 2. And that's why it is weak and niche. A Ret has better use in larger teams. By itself, life is very difficult in pvp, and that's just something you have to accept if you continue to play the class against players who have any idea as to what they're doing.

You have been very helpful, thank you for you time and effort <3

I think I'll try and test some other builds / setups and decide what's the one that is the golden ratio for my playstyle. If I decide to go for 800-1000 resil range I'll be having enormous fun in BGs when I have a team behind my back. If I'm solo however, in wpvp, and meet some difficult to beat caster, the outcome will not be so good of course. I might decide to stay between these two and find the balance so I'm good at BGs but also not weak in wpvp. Only time will tell how this is gonna work out, but I'll always try my best.

Thanks again,

xx

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Originally Posted by Mercy

Yes, because these are the kiddos that take the path of least resistance to beat out other players of similar skill level to their own.

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Why so judgemental?

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Originally Posted by Mercy

It can only take you so far, though, and Reckoning isn't going to get them anywhere against a truly skilled opponent that understands that if you don't attack them, they don't generate Reckoning procs.

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Well, in terms of 1v1 how do you intend to kill somebody when you don't attack him?
When it comes to arena we have seen in the last seasons that reckoning palys are making it to the top so even the "truly skilled" players have troubles in beating them.
It's also not like the dmg of the reckoning build relies on reckoning procs. In fact they hit pretty hard even when they don't get any reckoning proc whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by mier

Why so judgemental?

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Because Judgment is a Paladin core ability!

Jokes aside, I'm not judging anyone. At least not in the statement you quoted.

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Originally Posted by mier

Well, in terms of 1v1 how do you intend to kill somebody when you don't attack him?

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I never concern myself with 1v1. I don't consider duels as competitive. Others view dueling differently, and that's fine, but that's not me. Despite that, the spec you're pandering to of course beats anything that doesn't have sustain in a 1v1, because that's what it is designed to do. Duh.

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Originally Posted by mier

When it comes to arena we have seen in the last seasons that reckoning palys are making it to the top so even the "truly skilled" players have troubles in beating them.

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I think you and I have very different definitions of "truly skilled". Very few, if anyone at all, people on here I would classify as such. People of that caliber typically go elsewhere because challenging competition here does not exist for them, and the benefits for players such as them are significantly greater elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by mier

It's also not like the dmg of the reckoning build relies on reckoning procs. In fact they hit pretty hard even when they don't get any reckoning proc whatsoever.

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Oh? Pray tell, then, where does the bulk of their damage come from then? Please don't say Exorcism, 'cause I'm going to laugh at you if you do.

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Originally Posted by Bomesssor

You have been very helpful, thank you for you time and effort <3

I think I'll try and test some other builds / setups and decide what's the one that is the golden ratio for my playstyle. If I decide to go for 800-1000 resil range I'll be having enormous fun in BGs when I have a team behind my back. If I'm solo however, in wpvp, and meet some difficult to beat caster, the outcome will not be so good of course. I might decide to stay between these two and find the balance so I'm good at BGs but also not weak in wpvp. Only time will tell how this is gonna work out, but I'll always try my best.

Thanks again,

xx

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I'm glad I could help. Experimenting with your character, especially on a class that is as flexible as a paladin, is definitely something I recommend. Figuring out what works best for you and the way you play the game is key. I did the same way back in the day, and it made a world of difference. I continue to play around with varying specs and tricks, just for the sake of fun, and manage to be successful with many of them due to my experience. It's a wonderful way to have fun with the game, IMHO. It's a thing that is quite commonplace on retail, but people rarely play outside of the "norm" here on Warmane for whatever reason, and those who do are patronized by most of everyone else. Anyway, best of luck to you!

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Originally Posted by Mercy

Oh? Pray tell, then, where does the bulk of their damage come from then? Please don't say Exorcism, 'cause I'm going to laugh at you if you do.

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The dmg comes mostly from judgement which hits like a truck with caster weapon + x5 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=31801 + http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=20198.
Reckoning is a nice thing but it's not the main dmg source of this build. Ppl don't even put 5 points in that talent.

Pure ret is better when played perfectly, but preg spec is just easier, and we all know that warmane players are lazy morons who take the path of least resistance.

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Originally Posted by mier

The dmg comes mostly from judgement which hits like a truck with caster weapon + x5 http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=31801 + http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/spell=20198.

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So, an ability that doesn't hit any harder as pure Ret, on an 8s cd, is what you're going to rely on? Alright...
I know you're not new around here, so let's not pretend I'm new.

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Originally Posted by mier

Reckoning is a nice thing but it's not the main dmg source of this build. Ppl don't even put 5 points in that talent.

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Probably because you don't need 5 points in it due to how it functions...

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Originally Posted by Mercy

So, an ability that doesn't hit any harder as pure Ret, on an 8s cd, is what you're going to rely on? Alright...
I know you're not new around here, so let's not pretend I'm new.

Probably because you don't need 5 points in it due to how it functions...

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What do you try to imply? That the spec is weak? That it can't deal dmg w/o reckoning procs?
If that was true then the highend rated palys would prefer ret over the reckoning build but the opposite is the case.

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Originally Posted by Gamethrower

Pure ret is better when played perfectly, but preg spec is just easier, and we all know that warmane players are lazy morons who take the path of least resistance.

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Ehm. Nope.
Just look at the Arena ladder. The highend rated palys choose the preg spec over pure ret.
Do you honestly believe that they do that because they don't know how to play ret? That's absurd. It's not like ret is rocket science compared to the preg spec.

I really don't want to put people down, but the current warmane ladder really does not represent the most skilled players that the game has ever had to offer. It never really has. So trying to use that as a metric to gauge the performance of a ****ty spec like that one, sorry to say, but the spec will only be as good as the metric you use to measure it.