Question about ninja looting

I've had a discussion about this with some guildmates and i'd like to clarify some things, if possible.

Some classes have their "BIS" items that are apparently not made for their class, like agility paladins with Oathbinder, multiple classes with Toskk's bracers or a bunch of caster classes with items that are not of their armor class (cloth items for shamans/druids/paladins etc). They may be the item that will make them dish out the most damage or healing, but Blizzard obviously didn't intend things to be that way when they made the items because they dont fit the general guidelines/stats/armor class/whatever for that class.

Now, the question I have is this - is it considered ninja looting if a player rolls on such item? Let's say warrior rolling on Toskk's as an example.

Those items are good for warriors and paladins, makes them crit more, but if it's leather and a rogue needs it, it should go to the rogue, Only give to the warrior or Paladin if the rogue or druid doesn't needs it, Warriors and paladins should just be str and stam. But crit items can boost their dps if they have lesser gear.

No, it's not ninja. BiS/pre-BiS literaly means that this items are best possible for them. So they have equal rights for them just like leather in case of Toskks and casters in case of cloth boots/legs, etc.
Such lists of gear are around for long enough time so that everyone could study them.
And if you won't trade such item to roll winner, well... It would be rightful ban for ninja in raid, and from more than one person.
You either raid with common for PUG rules or go and create guild with such rules, cuz no PUG would join raid where there is mythical class-related gear distribution based on armor type

Well it all revolves around raid leader and his/her rules. For BiS pieces I dont feel that its ninja but any piece besides BiS ones are ninja in my eyes and there are some items that have alternatives as plate. I wouldnt allow hpalas/shamans to roll on normal wrist (cloth or leather) at rs25 since they both have higher ilvl with same stat build items at icc25 but ppl would call me ninja for not allowing I think :D.

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Originally Posted by Chevu4

Now, the question I have is this - is it considered ninja looting if a player rolls on such item? Let's say warrior rolling on Toskk's as an example.

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No it's not ninja looting at all, when it comes to PvE, if your a DPS or Healer of any kind you do not care about armor, armor only reduce physical damage taken which renders the stat useless for you, Therefore you go for items that gives you more Spell power / haste / crit over items that reduce those stats for more armor.
When it comes to melee dps going for leather gear it's because at end game gear once you reach a certain ammount of strength / AP you want to focus more on crit (even a little haste), leather items provide an additional ammount of crit at the cost of a little AP, but it still makes your average dps increase therefore it's better for your class, this is especially noticable on paladins, for some reason the class scales really well with agility, providing them more crit from it then Warr / DK, Hence the reason Retri Paladin use a lot of agility gear, the Polearm Oathbinder for example gives tons of agility and also the faster attack speed of the wep provides more melee swings resulting in more divine storm proccs from yout tier 10 bonus, that's the reason it's considered 2nd best wep for Retribution Paladins.

This isn't really common knowledge for new players who try leading pug raids for their first times and therefore there's a lot of different opinions about stats for certain classes, but there is a reason it's called "bis" and if you want to increase your damage you go for it.

Oathbinder doesnt provide faster attacks or anything, most weapons of same ilvl have same attack speed, what it provides is better single target dps due crit from agi, more penetrated damage due having arp instead of wasted expertise of gloren even if you change glyphs, items. And btw, some mods pointed that it would be seen as ninjalooting if a plate user rolls for every leather pieces.

While what Disktrasa says isn't necessarily false, what Bastardbottle said in the first reply is what takes precedence: that specific Raid's loot rules. If the stated rules say Fighters can only roll for cloth and staves, and you join the Raid anyway, you can't complain or call ninja on someone following them.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

While what Disktrasa says isn't necessarily false, what Bastardbottle said in the first reply is what takes precedence: that specific Raid's loot rules. If the stated rules say Fighters can only roll for cloth and staves, and you join the Raid anyway, you can't complain or call ninja on someone following them.

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so, basically, what you're saying is that its all up to the raid leader? if he states his rules, then those rules apply, even if they may be considered a ban-worthy offence by the staff?

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Originally Posted by Chevu4

so, basically, what you're saying is that its all up to the raid leader? if he states his rules, then those rules apply, even if they may be considered a ban-worthy offence by the staff?

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You contradict yourself. There can't be a ban-worthy offence if everyone agreed to the rules set in a raid and those rules are followed. If the RL states plate for mages and cloth for warriors and everyone agrees then that's the rules for the raid, no matter the reason for it.

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Originally Posted by Chevu4

so, basically, what you're saying is that its all up to the raid leader? if he states his rules, then those rules apply, even if they may be considered a ban-worthy offence by the staff?

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What's ultimately considered ban-worthy is the loot rules of the raid not being respected. GMs don't have any sort of "master list" they check that tells them what should go to whom. What happens is if the loot rules aren't respected, they take action. What makes people seem to think otherwise is that more often than not there were no loot rules declared at the start, so it should be distributed in a "default" manner. If that distribution doesn't happen in the opinion of one or more players, GMs have to make a judgement call whether that would go by those "default" rules or not. The ninja policy thread has some general guidelines GMs follow in such cases, but, again, that's for cases where the raid's loot rules didn't cover what happened.

A simple example that happens all the time is "reserved items." If you were to believe that the default guidelines supersede a specific raid's loot rules, nothing could ever be reserved, as the reserving is exactly to ensure some drops will go to a specific person, no matter who usually it should "belong to." No GM will issue a ban for items clearly reserved in the rules being taken and distributed by the leader as they wish, only if it hadn't been reserved and mid-raid they decide to tell people they will be keeping X or Y.

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Originally Posted by Bastardbottle

Oathbinder doesnt provide faster attacks or anything, most weapons of same ilvl have same attack speed, what it provides is better single target dps due crit from agi, more penetrated damage due having arp instead of wasted expertise of gloren even if you change glyphs, items. And btw, some mods pointed that it would be seen as ninjalooting if a plate user rolls for every leather pieces.

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Ah yes, you're right. I was confusing it with "bloodfall" polearm.
The "plate rolling for leather items" was about 5man heroics I belive, and items that clearly just isn't for your class, as oposed to bis items.

I have a question though, if leader forgets to set ML and someone ninja an item just to sell it to who ever needs it, is it leaders fault or the person who actually need rolls it? Could also apply for raids that's set to group loot.
Because I do lead early patch raids like Naxxramas, Ulduar, EoE, Onyxia etc, and I set group loot sometimes and explain if they ninja they get kick, still some people wisper me that's it's my fault and I will get banned if someone else ninja.

I am pretty active on forums and rules but I have a vague memory that this was discussed some time ago.

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Originally Posted by Disktrasa

I have a question though, if leader forgots to set ML and someone ninja an item just to sell it to who ever needs it, is it leaders fault or the person who actually need rolls it? Could also apply for raids that's set to group loot.
Because I do lead early patch raids like Naxxramas, Ulduar, EoE, Onyxia etc, and I set group loot sometimes and explain if they ninja they get kick, still some people wisper me that's it's my fault and I will get banned if someone else ninja.

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Better ask a GM directly for outlier stuff like that, but I'm pretty sure I've seen people commenting on both being banned - the leader for technically not following the raid's loot rules and the person who rolled highest if they keep it instead of handing out to the proper winner.

Personally in what you describe I'd send you off as well, since, unless I got something wrong, from what you're saying you're not having some sort of free-for-all loot, but just trying to avoid the responsibility of handling the loot distribution and be allowed to claim it wasn't your fault if someone steals a drop. Your warning about kicking if someone steals is what makes it look so to me.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Personally in what you describe I'd send you off as well, since, unless I got something wrong, from what you're saying you're not having some sort of free-for-all loot, but just trying to avoid the responsibility of handling the loot distribution and be allowed to claim it wasn't your fault if someone steals a drop. Your warning about kicking if someone steals is what makes it look so to me.

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Free for all loot is really bad since a lot of people auto loot the stuff and for pugs raids you can't use it.
It has nothing to do with avoiding responsibility, Handling out loot is a chore that takes up too much time when I'm trying to lead the raid, if I stop by the boss to handle out loot the whole raid will move on and I can't se what's happening, if I pick up the items I have to find and trade every person after every roll, even with loot addons it takes a long time in 25man raids with a lot of items that, frankly, 95% of the players don't care about, BoP items either, everyone can roll on them like it should be.
When using group loot (same as in RDF) everyone has a personal responsibility for what they roll on, why does that change because you're in a raid?
The warning about kick is to discourage people from ninja looting, How does it make me look sketchy? I don't follow your reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Disktrasa

I have a question though, if leader forgets to set ML and someone ninja an item just to sell it to who ever needs it, is it leaders fault or the person who actually need rolls it? Could also apply for raids that's set to group loot.
Because I do lead early patch raids like Naxxramas, Ulduar, EoE, Onyxia etc, and I set group loot sometimes and explain if they ninja they get kick, still some people wisper me that's it's my fault and I will get banned if someone else ninja.

I am pretty active on forums and rules but I have a vague memory that this was discussed some time ago.

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Here's the thread you are prolly referring to:
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=426815

@disktrasa giving loot is leader duty, same for not forgetting to use right loot method
the leader is there to make sure ppl get fair loot, not to go deal with it urselves and kick if they dont
u dont wanna do the duties cause its a chore then dont lead, ez