The Awkward Transition from Conquest to EOF Gear

Something that's been discouraging me from focusing on my Mage is that, right now, he is stuck in this limbo state of gear, where I have 2/4 Bloodmage pieces and 2/4 Conquest peices. And despite having 160 EOF to complete the set, I find that losing the Conquest bonus somehow makes me less powerful. In fact, I lose a substantial amount of crit, just like I did by dropping the 4/4 Conquest bonus.

None of the Bloodmage stuff has Spirit, which I find odd, as even with a modest priority on Spirit, mana is a pretty huge issue already. I must be missing soemthing as sometimes I see 6kgs mages in dungeons going oom every 2 minutes and I have no idea how they keep up dps in long raid fights, even with buffs.

At the moment I'm stuck on the idea of buying the 264 gear over the Bloodmage gear purely to inflate my GS so that I may get into a raid someday.

So what happens now? I gain, 80 crit and 96 haste with the bloodmage robe, but lose 1.37% crit from spirit and a further loss of 94 crit by losing the Conquest bonus. Also lose 64 hit. I then gain back the hit with bloodmage gloves, but lose 50 haste and a red socket. So in actuality I've lost almost 2% crit and gained a measely amount of extra spellpower and 3% haste.

These numbers just don;t add up for me.

I would buy the Bloodmage shoulders and gloves instead, but I already have Stiffened Corpse shoulders which are actually insanely good for me right now. Alot more crit thanks to spirit, more SP and an extra gem slot. But I miss out on 1% haste.

I read that the BIS items are BM- Head, Legs, Shoulders, Gloves. So I could theoretically buy Meteor chaser robes, but then I would need to replace shoulders and gloves just to compensate for losing the Conquest bonus. Even then it seems like I will be lucky to break even in stats.

I just find it disheartening that you can spend 350 EOF and not see any marked improvement in performance. I lost a good chunk of single target dps by dropping the 4/4 conquest and now I see this repeating itself with the full Bloodmage set. Feels like I'm pissing against the wind really.


I guess this post qualifies as half rant half request for advice. If anyone has any suggestion on what I should do from here I would appreciate it.

Gaining the 4 set of T10 will far beyond make up for the stat swap/loss, and don't forget you can still get normal marks to make it 264. Gearing by the bis template is recommended since you won't have to pull your hair out minmaxing the hit for its cap and alike. An 18% dmg bonus when all of your procs are aligned together is brutal, but I feel you - it is horrible to have to transition from tier to tier.

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Originally Posted by Droolie

Gaining the 4 set of T10 will far beyond make up for the stat swap/loss, and don't forget you can still get normal marks to make it 264. Gearing by the bis template is recommended since you won't have to pull your hair out minmaxing the hit for its cap and alike. An 18% dmg bonus when all of your procs are aligned together is brutal, but I feel you - it is horrible to have to transition from tier to tier.

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Hey Droolie,

The t10 bonus sounds okay and I guess it depends on what gear bracket you are working with. But for the moment, I just need loads of crit just to be viable and the t10 effectively takes it away. One step forward, two steps back kind of deal going on here it seems.

I'm sitting at 46% crit, and in dungeons, it's not that uncommon to go 20 casts with only 2 crits. No idea how that is even possible, but it keeps happening.

I'm just a struggling noob, but I feel like 5% crit would be more beneficial at this gear level. That 4/4 Bloodmage bonus seems good only when you are working with 5.7k+ where you have enough crit to make procs reliable.

Ultimately I feel like my DPS has not improved at all since dropping the 4/4 conquest. And I honestly don't know how losing another 2% crit is going to help me with my rotation.

Most VOA raids ask for 5.5k these days and I can't even hit that with the full BM set, at least not without cheating with pvp gear. Just feels bad to be stagnating for so long and really nothing better is on the horizon.

spirit is not a viable stats.

The key is to balance your stats, between crit and haste. If you have to much haste, you'll be oom really quick. If you lack of haste, your dps 'll struggle.
Look at master of elemts talent. After mage have mana gem's, evocation. Cumulate to healer ability* (rdrood, and disco priest), totems,....



*I'll not explain these mecanics if you don't know them.

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Originally Posted by OuchmyHead

Hey Droolie,

The t10 bonus sounds okay
I guess it depends on what gear bracket you are working with. But for the moment, I just need loads of crit just to be viable and the t10 effectively takes it away. One step forward, two steps back kind of deal going on here it seems.

I'm sitting at 46% crit, and in dungeons, it's not that uncommon to go 20 casts with only 2 crits. No idea how that is even possible, but it keeps happening.

I'm just a struggling noob, but I feel like 5% crit would be more beneficial at this gear level. That 4/4 Bloodmage bonus seems good only when you are working with 5.7k+ where you have enough crit to make procs reliable.

Ultimately I feel like my DPS has not improved at all since dropping the 4/4 conquest. And I honestly don't know how losing another 2% crit is going to help me with my rotation.
.

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Yep, but it's also depends on your spe. To be concise arcane is more easier with 'low gear'. (I mean to build around and play it) Around 5k7 fire begin to have more dps (if build and play correctly). The most important stuff on mage are trinkets.

Hi,

Please take the time to answers these four questions and I may be able to help you to figured out how to improve either your gear either your gameplay, because mages specs in pve (arcane and fire) are all but weak and get especially stronger when the 4T10 comes.
1/Can you give us the list of item you have equiped and/or available in your bags (use this database to link us the item : http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/)
2/Give us the spec you are using (use that talent generator : https://rpgworld.altervista.org/335/mage.php?)
3/Tell us the content you want to be able te play : specs can be super efficient in raid but a lot worst in dungeon (until you get overgeared for the dungeons)
4/And last question, just to get the experience you have, is mage your first caster, did you play casters on high end content before ?

Take care,

Tiny

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Originally Posted by TinyToys

Hi,

Please take the time to answers these four questions and I may be able to help you to figured out how to improve either your gear either your gameplay, because mages specs in pve (arcane and fire) are all but weak and get especially stronger when the 4T10 comes.
1/Can you give us the list of item you have equiped and/or available in your bags (use this database to link us the item : http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/)
2/Give us the spec you are using (use that talent generator : https://rpgworld.altervista.org/335/mage.php?)
3/Tell us the content you want to be able te play : specs can be super efficient in raid but a lot worst in dungeon (until you get overgeared for the dungeons)
4/And last question, just to get the experience you have, is mage your first caster, did you play casters on high end content before ?

Take care,

Tiny

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Hey Tiny, thank you and sorry for the late reply.

1) Here are the items I have equipped:

BM hood, Legs
Arcane loops of Anger
Stifened Corpse Shoulders
Conquest Robes, Gloves
Wrathful Cloak of dominance
Bejeweled Wizards's Bracers
Braid of Salt and Fire
Sandals of Consecration
Ashen Band of Unmatched Destruction
Nveermelting Ice Crystal
Mithril Pocketwatch
Seethe
Challice of Benedictus
Brimstone Igniter

2) Here are my Talents: Note: this is my Dungeon spec. Don't currently have a Raiding spec because I can't get into raids yet) There is one error currently in my spec that I haven't been bothered to fix, which is removing that rogue point from PWF and putting it into incineration.

https://rpgworld.altervista.org/335/...00000000000000

3) I like both FB and FFB. I don't really have a preference between the two.

4) I have never played high-end content but I am quite familiar/comfortable with the caster class. I have 3 other caster characters.


Just to clarify, it's not my current DPS that concerns me, it's more related to the fact I haven't been able to increase it even with an investment of 350 EOF. (155 calculated but not bought yet)

I've always been able to compete with BM (251) mages while wearing4/4 conquest gear in dungeons. After swapping out Conquest Head and Legs and even after adding in Sandals of Consecration, my DPS remains the same as if I was still wearing full conquest. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's has decreased overall.

I have my doubts that this is an isolated issue. I regularly see Mages with the 251 BM gear and 45k worth of BIS off-parts struggling to do 5k dps. Yes they do better against bosses due to 4/4 BM, but only slightly. Overall DPS is actually less.

Since I can't even hit the 5.5k mark with the full set I don't really see a reason to change specs, since my dungeon spec is simply better for running heroics, at least at this gear level.

I have 171 EOF and after doing some calculations, I will not gain any increase by upgrading to BM 4/4, not without also replacing robe with the 264 Meteor chaser robes as well. My plan now is to wait until I have 215 EOF to make the upgrade actually viable.

Hi,

Ok I see you point, correct me if I am wrong :

1/ You want swap from 2T9+2T10 to 4T10 but you loose stats in the process because you downgrade the ilvl of you shoulders from Stifened Corpse Shoulders (264) to Bloodmage Shoulder (251). As you said before you loosed 2%crit and gain 3%haste

2/ You see somes mages in dungeon and you beat them meanwhile they where better geared than you. But you beat them by doing more than 5k dps (if i got you correctly)

3/ You are not raiding, because you cannot join and you assume it's because of your gearscore


There are the points i can give you :

The lost you get on on crit is well compensated by the haste gain you will get and moreover by the 4T10 bonus
And a good side effect is that if you fix your spec (by going TTW for example which is simply better (even for dungeon)) you will get more chance to get into a serious raid, because a smart RaidLeader looking at 2 candidates seing one of the in 2T9+2T10 and with and unoptimized spec, and a 2d one with 4T10 and with an optimized spec, will know for sure that the second one have stronger ways to get better DPS than the 1rst

Mages low dpsing in dungeon will ever be, in fact Mages have a long casting time so the only way to get decent dps on trash in dungeon is to be haste oriented, or to play arcane. Or to be really used to farm dungeons and have smart targets. With you gear and playing TTW on dungeon bosses I can pull at least 7 to 8k dps, with 4T10 easely jump to 9-10k

To my mind you shouldn't take that much importance to how to play mage in dungeon, because basically if you play mage in dungeon the way they are meant to be played in raid you will still maxxing your dps, compare to raid, in dungeons : rotation doesn't change, hit cap doesn't change, mob priority doesn't change the only thing that change is that in raid with a huge number of buff your character will be on steroids ^^ , the only difference is that in raid during trash mobs you will way more aoeing than you will in dungeons

I can give you advice on how to play via discord if you want, (pm on the forum if you want)

But do not assume if you see random ppl pulling 5k dps from their character it's because this is how it's meant to be, a lot of people especially in dungeon and low raiding instances are just casual players which never took the time to minmax their gameplay. While i am leveling my characters from 0gs to BIS gear, at any point before 6k dps, i just double the damage done by most (aroung 90% i meet) of the mage (especially unexperienced once) at my level of gs, just by outplaying them in terms of mechanics and gameplay.

Tiny

PS : Classic TTWFire is the spec you should go for if you want to minmaxing you char and be more seriously taken by smart RLs : https://rpgworld.altervista.org/335/...00000000000000

nicely explain. Most simple explanations than I should done .

I 'll just add one thing about mage in dungeon. Due to tank, ect I 'm never serious in dungeon (never burst, use mirror image,...) because I'm 6k+. If I try to burst almost everytime I insta aggro. So I nerf my dps to make it's easier for low gs, especially tank.

I 'm not the only one who do this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinyToys

Hi,

Ok I see you point, correct me if I am wrong :

1/ You want swap from 2T9+2T10 to 4T10 but you loose stats in the process because you downgrade the ilvl of you shoulders from Stifened Corpse Shoulders (264) to Bloodmage Shoulder (251). As you said before you loosed 2%crit and gain 3%haste

2/ You see somes mages in dungeon and you beat them meanwhile they where better geared than you. But you beat them by doing more than 5k dps (if i got you correctly)

3/ You are not raiding, because you cannot join and you assume it's because of your gearscore


There are the points i can give you :

The lost you get on on crit is well compensated by the haste gain you will get and moreover by the 4T10 bonus
And a good side effect is that if you fix your spec (by going TTW for example which is simply better (even for dungeon)) you will get more chance to get into a serious raid, because a smart RaidLeader looking at 2 candidates seing one of the in 2T9+2T10 and with and unoptimized spec, and a 2d one with 4T10 and with an optimized spec, will know for sure that the second one have stronger ways to get better DPS than the 1rst

Mages low dpsing in dungeon will ever be, in fact Mages have a long casting time so the only way to get decent dps on trash in dungeon is to be haste oriented, or to play arcane. Or to be really used to farm dungeons and have smart targets. With you gear and playing TTW on dungeon bosses I can pull at least 7 to 8k dps, with 4T10 easely jump to 9-10k

To my mind you shouldn't take that much importance to how to play mage in dungeon, because basically if you play mage in dungeon the way they are meant to be played in raid you will still maxxing your dps, compare to raid, in dungeons : rotation doesn't change, hit cap doesn't change, mob priority doesn't change the only thing that change is that in raid with a huge number of buff your character will be on steroids ^^ , the only difference is that in raid during trash mobs you will way more aoeing than you will in dungeons

I can give you advice on how to play via discord if you want, (pm on the forum if you want)

But do not assume if you see random ppl pulling 5k dps from their character it's because this is how it's meant to be, a lot of people especially in dungeon and low raiding instances are just casual players which never took the time to minmax their gameplay. While i am leveling my characters from 0gs to BIS gear, at any point before 6k dps, i just double the damage done by most (aroung 90% i meet) of the mage (especially unexperienced once) at my level of gs, just by outplaying them in terms of mechanics and gameplay.

Tiny

PS : Classic TTWFire is the spec you should go for if you want to minmaxing you char and be more seriously taken by smart RLs : https://rpgworld.altervista.org/335/...00000000000000

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Thanks Tiny,

I still don't understand how 3% haste is better than 2% crit. I play with a minimum of 320 ping so 3% won't even account for casting latency for me. I guess I shouldn't knock it without actually trying it. But it seems to me like I need more crit more than I need haste at this point.

I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment about TTW being better for dungeons. Better for bosses, of course, but TTW is not as good for dealing with trash imo, which is essentially 90% of what you do in dungeons.

With my current spec I can do over 11k on trash, even while wearing full conquest. Not just that but TTW missies out on what I would consider to be the best utility spell in the entire game for trash (Dragons breath)

What I tend to see happening in dungeons a lot is TTW/Arcane pulls aggro 99% of the time focusing mobs, whereas I can do better AOE damage, interrupt entire groups of casters in addition to spreading my aggro more evenly. The utility value alone in dungeons like HOR/FOS/POS makes it better imo. One other minor aspect is that DB makes for an excellent survival tool for both yourself and other group members- something I find myself using for that very purpose in every single dungeon.

I think a lot of people underestimate the potency of talents like Ice shards. 40-50% crit with 3-5k Blizzard ticks in Conquest gear on trash closes that DPS gap quite easily. Throw in a LB>DB>FS>Blizzard combo and just like that you're doing more AOE than people with higher GS. At least this has been my experience.

Ultimately I do get out-dps'ed on bosses (not always) but my overall damage from superior AOE levels this out to be better DPS per GS. In this gear bracket at least. The only exception seems to be when there aren't enough trash mobs, then TTW/Arcane pulls ahead. I will definitely be changing spec for raiding as I figure boss DPS matters the most.


I guess I will have to wait and see what happens when I hit 215 emblems lol. I was really disappointed when switching to BM 2/2. Losing 5% crit in exchange for that situational haste proc did not work too well for me. Maybe my high ping is to blame for that. I don't know.

Appreciate the advice.

I still don't understand how 3% haste is better than 2% crit. I play with a minimum of 320 ping so 3% won't even account for casting latency for me. I guess I shouldn't knock it without actually trying it. But it seems to me like I need more crit more than I need haste at this point.

When you are reasonning here you compare 3% haste with 2% crit (1) but total negligate the 4 set bonus (2)

(1)
First yes to my mind 3%haste is stronger than 2% crit, simply because as mage the value of haste and crit are quite similar, i don't have the EJ number in mind, power ranking of stats as mage is like hit > sp > crit > haste < the rest
but like if i have to put value out of 10 for each stats i would approximatily go for
hit : 10/10
sp : 9.9/10
crit : 8/10
haste : 7.5/10
it's not perfect but it give you a view of how i rank the stats relatively to each other (it's my opinion)
Now you know how i feel about stats and now lets compare 3% to 2% : i let you realize that 3% is 150% of 2% so it's net +50% stats which is huge !!
And you will prefer 2% over 3% only if you rate haste lower 5.3/10 because in this case : 8*2% = 0.16 = 5.3*3%
Even if you not agree with my power ranking do you really thing that if crit is a 8/10, haste should be a 5.3/10 ?

(2)
4T9 bonus : +5% crit not applyied on LB neither on Pyro (which are representing around 35% of your incoming damges (at BIS) so it should be around 25% at your level of gear assuming you are procing way less)
4T10 bonus : +18% damages (from any source) for 30sec every 3min, quick maths : 3min : 180sec, 30sec/180sec = 0.167 = 16.7% ; 16,7%*18% = 3%
So comparing the 4T9 bonus is +5% crit on 75% of your damage source (FB) (btw if you are aoeing as you say that bonus have no value meanwhile aoe is done by flamestrike LB and pyro which are not impacted by the bonus)
and 4T10 is 3% raw damages from any source,
I hope you see the gap now

The balance is between : 2% crit + (5%crit on FB)
VS : 3% haste + 3%damage

I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment about TTW being better for dungeons. Better for bosses, of course, but TTW is not as good for dealing with trash imo, which is essentially 90% of what you do in dungeons.

If you speak about doing dungeon on full aoe first, remember that what is challenging isn't trashs in dungeons it should be boss, except on specific such as in POS and on these specific you are a better help if you are solotargeting the more harmfull unit in order to shut im down
At this point 2 ways : 1/ first you are always rushing and than LB don't have time to explode and than your group is good and the challenges are the bosses (if their is any challenge) but if you want stil to be focus on trash and not and boss you should go on full frost spec with chilling + all modifiers to crit damage on chilled targets you can. GL finding a raid group with a frost aoe oriented spec. as RL I will not even considere taking you into a group even if you are BIS geared
2/ second way you are not with a strong group and rushing is not an option and than your LB have plenty of time to explode and you will have more value from the TTW spec than any other fire spec. + you willl be way better on bosses

With my current spec I can do over 11k on trash, even while wearing full conquest.
I am not interested about number you can get in aoe it depends on the number of thrash you are hitting, 11k seems pretty weak if you have 10 targets and can be good if you are hitting 2 targets
I was juste reacting to the 5k you mentionned before, but if you are not confident on my capacity to estimate which spec are stronger than another, just know that i am playing mage on 3.3.5a since 10 years know, and i minmaxed my spec at a point where i am able to do encounters like that : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHahJwkQek on LoD (with the 30%buff). Not have all the knowleadge about that encounter but just know that we speak about maintaining 21k dps during 7min of encounter without yolo aoe everything in order to raise dps by raising unusefull damage. Requiert both experience and focus. Sorry for the digression but i didn't give you before any reasons to have faith on what i say in terms of damages/dps

As i said before, you should try to think as a raider and also to how RLs will feel about you if you are showing up to them with aoe oriented spec.
Dungeon is a step, raid is the real deal, you should use the opportunity to train your ability to maxing you dps on monotarget meanwhile you are ungeared and doing easy dungeons. If you skip that training part you will struggle to do your job in raids, and what you want especially w/o guild is to show your best face to the first RL which will give you a shoot, this way if he is doing global raids often, you will show him that he can count on you and inviting you the next time you ask him for

Tiny

PS : if a RL give you a shot in a raid with you current spec I advice you to do not go, it mean he don't care about optimization of the players he recruit, which is never a good thing