Orc vs Undead - Axe Spec & Blood Fury

Hi there,

I'm looking for some qualified and supported opinions regarding Orc vs Undead - Axe Spec & Blood Fury specifically.

First off - I have googled this, and you'd be surprised how unclear the information is, considering how much of a topic you'd think this would be. I even found a topic pre-ICC where a self-proclaimed Rogue expert said Rogues should never use Axes because they are for Enhancement Shamans, I guess that didn't age well?

Also - I don't play on Warmane, but I know that this is there are a lot of experienced players in this community and I couldn't think of a better place to ask this question.

Okay so here are my questions -

1. At 80, how much of a DPS increase is having Blood Fury vs not having it? (because there is no scaling on this racial, this should account for a flat %).

2. Do Axes come up regularly throughout a Rogue's gearing cycle?

3. If playing an Orc Rogue, does Axe Specialization dictate your gearing choices at all? (may tie in with the above question 2)

Thanks in advance.

I don't play Rogue but I can answer some of your questions.
Ill address your First paragraph, what do you mean by pre-ICC? Like ToC/Ulduar? Or did you mean pre-WotLK? Before WOTLK, Combat Rogues had Sword Specialization, it was changed in WotLK to Hack and Slash which now provides a 5% chance to get an extra swing with both Swords and Axes. Before then, using Axes was a huge DPS lost. So I don't know what that guy is talking about exactly if he's talking about WOTLK. Just like Rogues, Enhancement Shamans need a combined swing timer under 3.00 for Windfury GCD proc, so there are Axes with 1.4 and 2.6 Attack Speed. Now, I think all the Axes in Naxxaramas are 2.60 Attack Speed, meaning you can use them for Main Hand but you'll need to find a Sword for Off-Hand. That might be what he's referring too but if you are playing on a 3.3.5 server that isn't a concern. There are a handful of Axes, both Main-Hand and Off-Hand, in FoS, PoS, and HoR aswell as ToC. You will also be able to get a good Axe in ICC before a Sword, as the swords only drop from the later bosses and the Axes drop from the first 3 bosses.

1. Thats a impossible question that varies from player to player because you need a base number to find the percentage of the increase. On my Orc Warrior, I have 4098 Attack Power without Blood Fury, at level 80 Blood Fury gives 322 Attack Power (80 x 4+2). With Blood Fury, I have 4420 Attack Power, which is a 7.2% increase for 15 seconds only. Now for example, lets say your Attack Power is 3000 and you use Blood Fury making it 3322, you now have a 9.7% increase. So the increase of DMG isn't static but based on whatever you Attack Power is. You do not make it clear what you are talking about, PvP or PvE, but I'm assuming PvE since you are talking about what seems like Combot Spec. Compared to an Undead, who has no Attack Power increase, +322 Attack Power for 15 Seconds is a great proc.

2. I don't know what you mean by this. Are you talking about useable Axes that drop? Assuming that's what you mean, then Yes. At Level 80, throughout all content you will find Axes for Rogues, many times better than the swords which are harder to obtain.

3. No. Each point of Expertise is only going to give you a 0.25% Chance of Your Opponent not Dodging your attacks. Raid Bosses have 6.5% chance at dodging your attacks at level 80. 5 Expertise is only going to lower that to 5.25% chance to dodge. So you still need to stack Hit Rating. If you look in the Combat Rogue spec, it actually has an ability that can increase your Expertise +10 but it isn't used. The reason is because you stack Hit Rating as a Rogue and that most of your gear is going to have Hit Rating by default. You will reach the cap much faster stacking Hit than you would Expertise. Now, I'm not saying Expertise isn't good because having a +1.25% Chance your target won't dodge is better than having none.

Now, if you are discussing PvP, that is a different story. Undead have Will of the Forsaken and you wouldn't use Axes as Subtility or Assassin. So, for PvE, yes play an Orc as it gives you all the benefits.

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Originally Posted by JarrettG

First off - I have googled this, and you'd be surprised how unclear the information is, considering how much of a topic you'd think this would be. I even found a topic pre-ICC where a self-proclaimed Rogue expert said Rogues should never use Axes because they are for Enhancement Shamans, I guess that didn't age well?

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Pre-ICC there's ToC which offers axes,the Battered Hilt reward is a sword as well. The fist spec was mostly as good as dead during wotlk,since wrath has one really viable fist weapon,and that is in ICC 25m. Daggers are in a better place but still,it requires really bad luck on drops to be forced to use daggers as combat still.
However,pre-ToC assa had a lead due to mostly the lack of arp on gear(and due to talents being different than the finalized ones we have now). Since they use daggers,the 5 expertise from wielding axes was useless.
As for endgame gearing,it helps,but considering the best racial for rogues is troll's Berserking,you can get away with just gemming some extra expertise to counter the loss. ICC has one viable mainhand sword(which is pre-bis without heroic lk),and two viable axes for mainhand,and two offhand axes. ToC from the top of my head has one mh axe and one oh axe on 25m.

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Originally Posted by JarrettG

At 80, how much of a DPS increase is having Blood Fury vs not having it? (because there is no scaling on this racial, this should account for a flat %).

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It's a loss if you're talking about undead vs orc. Hard to pinpoint how much,but it is a loss.

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Originally Posted by JarrettG

Do Axes come up regularly throughout a Rogue's gearing cycle?

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From personal experience,yes. And as i said,there's one viable sword in ICC vs four axes. However,as i also said,you can get by without relying the 5 expertise from the racial(alliance rogues,non-orc rogues for example).

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Originally Posted by JarrettG

If playing an Orc Rogue, does Axe Specialization dictate your gearing choices at all?

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Not much,as the endgame bis lists remain unchanged,you'll just have to gem accordingly to counter the loss.
If anything,the Hack&Slash talent and the lack of good options for maces/daggers/fists as combat dictates to hunt down swords/axes instead.

This is for pve only ofc,for pvp the undead racial is better,in pve it's rarely useful.