DBW HC really bis for uhdk?

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May 10, 2022
xTheLichKingx

DBW HC really bis for uhdk?

It's always been debated that DBW HC > Death's verdict/choice HC on unholy dk.

The problem I see is that you can't optimally line-up DBW proc's with your gargoyle and thus DBW benefits gargoyle only once.

Not only that, but the crit proc won't benefit your ghoul or gargoyle so you have a 1/3 chance to swing and go crazy, 1/3 chance to swing and get an ok proc, and 1/3 chance to swing and get ****ty dwarf proc.

Gargoyle = 180/360/540 up-time = 16.67%
STS = 45/90/135/180 up-time = 33% Stats: 184, +1472 atk power Proc stats: 245.33 str or 490.67 atk power
WFS = 45/90/135/180 up-time = 33% Stats: 148 crit, +1250 atk power Proc stats: 208.33 str or 416.67 atk power
DV/DC = 45/90/135/180 up-time = 33% Stats: 288 atk power, +510 str Proc stats:198.9 str or 397.8 atk power
DBW = 105/210/315/420/525 up-time = 28.5% Stats: 167 arpen, + 700 str/haste/crit Proc stats: 233.4 str or 466.83 atk power (taunka always)
(str calculated based on atk power / 2 for non-strength trinkets )
(Kings buff + 7% strength scaling from talents factored in so str is multiplied by 1.17)

Full Comparison
STS = 45/90/135/180 Stats: 184, arpen Proc stats: 245.33 str or 490.67 atk power
WFS = 45/90/135/180 Stats: 148 crit, Proc stats: 208.33 str or 416.67 atk power
DV/DC = 45/90/135/180 Stats: 288 atk power Proc stats:198.9 str or 397.8 atk power
DBW = 105/210/315/420/525 Stats: 167 arpen Proc stats: 233.4 str or 466.83 atk power (taunka always)

With arpen being a sub-stat that, even at bis, gives 60-70% total damage affected, with the proc being roulette, and with the uptime being a sizeable amount worse than other available trinkets AND the proc not alligning with the second gargoyle, is this trinket really our best option?
May 10, 2022
hezente

Ripped off straight from my guild's discord.
Hope it helps you with your problem :).

Trinkets: Lots and lots of options here that will vary on a fight per fight basis.
[Whispering Fanged Skull] Lady 10 HC
[Death's Choice] Twins 25 HC (TOGC)
These 2 are great AOE trinkets and will surpass DBW on fights with lots of AOE especially if those fights are long. Mainly LOD/Halion 25 HC. Will sometimes be considered BIS (especially Death's Choice).

Dbw hc is superior for short/single target fights by a huge margain.
May 10, 2022
xTheLichKingx

How-so though? Why is DBW superior on single target? Of course if you get taunka everytime it's the best, but that's not reliable
May 11, 2022
Persivaln

Because for UH DK any DBW proc is good DPS boost, but for AoE fight only crit has good value due to diseases spread and mass crit
May 11, 2022
xTheLichKingx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Persivaln

Because for UH DK any DBW proc is good DPS boost, but for AoE fight only crit has good value due to diseases spread and mass crit

Yes, all dbw procs are great :D
but you fail to acknowledge it's competitors -.-
The point of this thread isn't "Is dbw a good trinket" it's "Is dbw THE BEST trinket" and I personally gotta say,

148 crit and a statick 50 attack power loss + consistant trinket procs lining up with my cds > 167 arpen + inconsistant rng procs + inconsistant cd + only 50 attack power increase if lucky with all taunka procs.
May 11, 2022
Xyriphe

You can reason all you like; ultimately the position of DBW+STS hc as BIS for single target damage doesn't come from reasoning, but from simulations like Simcraft and Kahorie's DK simulator.

I'm not in a position to test DBW+STS vs other combos myself yet, so until then I'll just go by the received wisdom and spend my DKP on them when I can.
May 14, 2022
xTheLichKingx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyriphe

You can reason all you like; ultimately the position of DBW+STS hc as BIS for single target damage doesn't come from reasoning, but from simulations like Simcraft and Kahorie's DK simulator.

I'm not in a position to test DBW+STS vs other combos myself yet, so until then I'll just go by the received wisdom and spend my DKP on them when I can.

I understand people do sims all day and not, but in those sims do human-like decisions get made where procs are made sure to be activated before important CDs are used, such as making sure to spam 4 scourge strikes + 4 blood strikes and gargoyle when all procs are active to gain maximum damage from the CDs?
May 14, 2022
Frysharry

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTheLichKingx

I understand people do sims all day and not, but in those sims do human-like decisions get made where procs are made sure to be activated before important CDs are used, such as making sure to spam 4 scourge strikes + 4 blood strikes and gargoyle when all procs are active to gain maximum damage from the CDs?

no, sims randomly use cooldowns and abilities and human error is not only accounted for but its factor is increased because its the most fair way of determining the best DPS setup.

congratulations on figuring out your pet can crit after playing the class for 5 years.
May 14, 2022
angrylol

Don't put too much stock in sims. You will never get the projected result in game. You can base on them decisions where and how you sacrifice something to do something else more useful in an actual raid. And that depends on too many circumstances only you face to "tell which is better".
May 15, 2022
xTheLichKingx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frysharry

no, sims randomly use cooldowns and abilities and human error is not only accounted for but its factor is increased because its the most fair way of determining the best DPS setup.

congratulations on figuring out your pet can crit after playing the class for 5 years.

Thanks for insulting me and using sarcasm without contributing anything useful to the conversation nor answering any questions I may have in regards to sims.

In regards to sims, my point is that the gargoyle would be used after the rotation set. So the sim doesn't account for disease spreading to adds on DBS/Marrow/LDW/etc, or dNd on ****, nor does it use CDs at the right moment and instead opting to use CDs immediately, so you can have gargoyle proc'd before DBW/STS/Fallen Crusader/Speed Potion are activated (and combined) let alone using scourge strike-spam with Empowered Rune Weapon for max damage gain out of said cooldowns.

By waiting with cooldowns until you get procs, you "lose dps" by not using the CD, but most fights don't last long enough for said CD to be used more than a specific number of times. Gargoyle can be used 2x on a 5 min fight and 3x on an 8 min fight, waiting for procs is 100% worth it in-regards to gargoyle. Also DBW proc doesn't line-up with STS proc in regards to Gargoyle, therefor weakening the trinket and thus furthering my discussion.
May 15, 2022
Blind

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTheLichKingx

Thanks for insulting me and using sarcasm without contributing anything useful to the conversation nor answering any questions I may have in regards to sims.

In regards to sims, my point is that the gargoyle would be used after the rotation set. So the sim doesn't account for disease spreading to adds on DBS/Marrow/LDW/etc, or dNd on ****, nor does it use CDs at the right moment and instead opting to use CDs immediately, so you can have gargoyle proc'd before DBW/STS/Fallen Crusader/Speed Potion are activated (and combined) let alone using scourge strike-spam with Empowered Rune Weapon for max damage gain out of said cooldowns.

By waiting with cooldowns until you get procs, you "lose dps" by not using the CD, but most fights don't last long enough for said CD to be used more than a specific number of times. Gargoyle can be used 2x on a 5 min fight and 3x on an 8 min fight, waiting for procs is 100% worth it in-regards to gargoyle. Also DBW proc doesn't line-up with STS proc in regards to Gargoyle, therefor weakening the trinket and thus furthering my discussion.

He's right though, albeit a bit on the sarcastic side. If you knew your way around kahories you could simply simulate your situation a couple hundred times over and check the results vs any other spec you might imagine. Yes, even with the improper use of CDs you're trying to force here. Your argument is based on an extremely thick layer of luck involved to actually have any sort of impact. "Waiting with CDs" is an immediate gamble. If your STS or DBW decides to proc five seconds late you're throwing all your dps into the dumpster for a "maybe I do 15.5 this time, not 15.4!".

BiS-Lists are based on sims, not on feels. Why? Because this is a game based on math. Numbers don't lie. If you want to have any sort of chance to be taken serious you'd need to base your arguments on the established tools or present them based on a large enough number of attempts.

But to answer your question regarding trinkets as well: DBW/STS is your "go to" combination. Provides higher top end numbers and more single target damage, which is in general the most desired target to damage. If you're furious about getting "bad procs" all day you can also just go for STS/DC, the difference is barely noticeable anywhere outside of lod. And even there it's not a gamebreaking difference.
May 15, 2022
Frysharry

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTheLichKingx

Thanks for insulting me and using sarcasm without contributing anything useful to the conversation nor answering any questions I may have in regards to sims.

there's no point in trying to have a conversation with you because you're not trying to have a conversation. you're trying to dump your baked ideas about rudimentary game mechanics onto the forums and then saying, "YA BUT WHAT IF? has ANYONE tested it??". and then when someone comes along and says, yes, we have tested it and determined x to be the best course of action, you repeat your baked ideas again, as though people didn't try to give you the time of day. you've done this in multiple threads about multiple half baked ideas and all of your ideas from come a late night shower after smoking a fat joint and realizing something like "wowerz i was attacking mobs in crystalsong forest and i realized my pet can crit so that means crit > haste for unholy dk. DOES ANYONE ELSE KNOW THIS?? IT'S REVOLUTIONARY INFORMATION!!!!". just because you cannot figure out fundamentals of your class after playing it for 5 years doesn't mean everyone else is equally as dense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTheLichKingx

In regards to sims, my point is that the gargoyle would be used after the rotation set. So the sim doesn't account for disease spreading to adds on DBS/Marrow/LDW/etc, or dNd on ****, nor does it use CDs at the right moment and instead opting to use CDs immediately, so you can have gargoyle proc'd before DBW/STS/Fallen Crusader/Speed Potion are activated (and combined) let alone using scourge strike-spam with Empowered Rune Weapon for max damage gain out of said cooldowns.

By waiting with cooldowns until you get procs, you "lose dps" by not using the CD, but most fights don't last long enough for said CD to be used more than a specific number of times. Gargoyle can be used 2x on a 5 min fight and 3x on an 8 min fight, waiting for procs is 100% worth it in-regards to gargoyle. Also DBW proc doesn't line-up with STS proc in regards to Gargoyle, therefor weakening the trinket and thus furthering my discussion.

THEN SIM IT. why are you suggesting something and coming to the forum to dump your ideas before you even ran sims? and no, going to a level 76 zone to attack level 76 mobs is not "testing it" nor are your late night showers "theorycrafting." this is just another example of you not giving two craps about actually doing any of the leg work to test your baked ideas. the ENTIRE point of simming is to eliminate all human errors and to figure out the highest theoretical output of given paramters. you can change fight length, the type of fight, your rotation, your cooldown priority, EVERYTHING, but you don't want to, and this is why every single one of your threads are a complete and utter waste of time. simming is completely free and unlimited; these programs don't come with a "your first sim is free but then all other sims after is $29.99 per month!" catch. but for you to be able to actually engage with people and get these sims you would have to not have 98% of all of warmane on ignore, shadowbanned, or some other way of isolating yourself to only to people who fervently worship you as some kind of pug-god for doing 8k dps in an icc25 pug as a 6.8k gs unhdk on festergut. there's so many discords and resources out there, from warmane's unofficial discord to funkymusic's attempt at making an EJ clone discord with a ton of people who are passionate about the game and love to talk about this stuff, but that would require you to expose yourself who people who dare suggest you could be wrong about anything.

but i love your posts because it's #content, so please keep making them.
May 15, 2022
Beanlord

Stop entertaining this guy please. There are a considerable amount of threads where this question has been answered already.
May 15, 2022
xTheLichKingx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frysharry

there's no point in trying to have a conversation with you because you're not trying to have a conversation. you're trying to dump your baked ideas about rudimentary game mechanics onto the forums and then saying, "YA BUT WHAT IF? has ANYONE tested it??". and then when someone comes along and says, yes, we have tested it and determined x to be the best course of action, you repeat your baked ideas again, as though people didn't try to give you the time of day. you've done this in multiple threads about multiple half baked ideas and all of your ideas from come a late night shower after smoking a fat joint and realizing something like "wowerz i was attacking mobs in crystalsong forest and i realized my pet can crit so that means crit > haste for unholy dk. DOES ANYONE ELSE KNOW THIS?? IT'S REVOLUTIONARY INFORMATION!!!!". just because you cannot figure out fundamentals of your class after playing it for 5 years doesn't mean everyone else is equally as dense.

THEN SIM IT. why are you suggesting something and coming to the forum to dump your ideas before you even ran sims? and no, going to a level 76 zone to attack level 76 mobs is not "testing it" nor are your late night showers "theorycrafting." this is just another example of you not giving two craps about actually doing any of the leg work to test your baked ideas. the ENTIRE point of simming is to eliminate all human errors and to figure out the highest theoretical output of given paramters. you can change fight length, the type of fight, your rotation, your cooldown priority, EVERYTHING, but you don't want to, and this is why every single one of your threads are a complete and utter waste of time. simming is completely free and unlimited; these programs don't come with a "your first sim is free but then all other sims after is $29.99 per month!" catch. but for you to be able to actually engage with people and get these sims you would have to not have 98% of all of warmane on ignore, shadowbanned, or some other way of isolating yourself to only to people who fervently worship you as some kind of pug-god for doing 8k dps in an icc25 pug as a 6.8k gs unhdk on festergut. there's so many discords and resources out there, from warmane's unofficial discord to funkymusic's attempt at making an EJ clone discord with a ton of people who are passionate about the game and love to talk about this stuff, but that would require you to expose yourself who people who dare suggest you could be wrong about anything.

but i love your posts because it's #content, so please keep making them.

So, you say I'm wrong, I test something, I do it and implement it, it works in practical and real time, and you insist I got high af and am pulling it out of my ***?

in regards to this thread, DC and DBW HC have CONSTANTLY been discussed as "1 or the other, neither make a big difference, DBW is better if you got Smourne and DC if you got Glorenz" from what I hear ALL THE TIME.

In regards to ghoul frenzy, I literally am practicing what I'm preaching and that **** has given me a solid dps increase.
May 16, 2022
Blind

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTheLichKingx

So, you say I'm wrong, I test something, I do it and implement it, it works in practical and real time, and you insist I got high af and am pulling it out of my ***?

in regards to this thread, DC and DBW HC have CONSTANTLY been discussed as "1 or the other, neither make a big difference, DBW is better if you got Smourne and DC if you got Glorenz" from what I hear ALL THE TIME.

In regards to ghoul frenzy, I literally am practicing what I'm preaching and that **** has given me a solid dps increase.

You're still failing to understand the basic issue with your "testing" -> If something doesn't work for others and isn't reproductible for anyone but you the issue is bound to be on your end.

It's the same **** like your arp uh dk thread/"guide". Ye it's a fun spec, no it's not the holy grail you somehow found. Heck you found out your ghoul can crit after how many years? Four? Five? And without any sort of actual testing just spewed out "so crit > haste for uh dk!" like nobody else before you actually considered that when the math was done coming up with haste > crit.

Ironically you stating ghoul frenzy is a "solid dps increase" only makes me question your general gameplay, considering pets are a pretty much constant (and compareable) source of damage in static encounters no matter your rotation I come to the conclusion the rest of your rotation is severely flawed.

Do you mind showing any numbers to back up your claims/counter the arguments made against you? Or is all of this just, pardon me quoting but I love it, "ideas from a late night shower"?